Sandro De Cecco: Okay.
Gemma Testera: Yeah. Let me explore that.
Sandro De Cecco: Francesco, in the meanwhile, that we wait.
ijocelyn: Welcome!
Sandro De Cecco: Just wanna let you know that since in North America at this time is the start of the day and teaching duties, we do have some request, and to embed a bit of the order of the let's say the the question and the presentation. If you don't mind.
Francesco Forti: Sure that's fine.
Francesco Forti: So yeah, I I saw that you uploaded the the slides, and so there's 1 file right, and then you will go through the file in whatever order
Francesco Forti: you think best.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah.
Francesco Forti: Okay, good.
Francesco Forti: Okay. Maybe we should get started. Just just a couple of words about this. This is what we call the breakout session. And so this is a you know. It's mainly a subcommittee meeting with the people who are mostly from from the committee. Interested and and caring about the Id.
Francesco Forti: It's not a formal review. It's it's more like, you know, an informal exchange of information, so that we understand where you stand and see if there are particular issues that we want to
Francesco Forti: point out
Francesco Forti: and basically help you to converge. So I don't think that it should be hopefully, it's not been a large burden for you. We we compiled this list of questions that were somehow coming to our mind. And it's so. It's very good to see that you use that. As for to to formulate the answers, and I think we can, we can get started.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah, sure, I would just introduce. So indeed, we split the presentation in the 4 parts. You you split the list of questions. So part, one on the Tpc. Part 2 on other detector component, part 3 on parts, on power, logistic and infrastructure, and part 4 was question about budget and schedule, but we discussed it also with Marzio and
Sandro De Cecco: Christian, and actually we, I communicate with the franchise, anticipated that this part will be more treated in more detail in February 13. Instead, we propose a list of critical items and milestones at the end of the talk. So, just for reason of time, constraint, we will invert a bit the order
Sandro De Cecco: of questions, but I believe that you are acquainted with our project. So it's not a problem with you, and we will start actually with question 1.3.
Sandro De Cecco: So Emilia will present the ivoltage. Sorry. 1.2. I'm sorry. 1.2 and then we will go to part 3
Sandro De Cecco: also to let mart project construction, direction, be here and excel in particular the test to teach, and then we'll go back and restart from question 1 1 and go in the order. Okay.
Sandro De Cecco: if you don't mind.
Sandro De Cecco: So at this point
Sandro De Cecco: I will let them. Actually, Emilia, start discussing. If you want, I can share the slide for you, Amelia, or, as you want.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: That's fine.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: So we are on the slide. 13. May I know? Good morning. May I know what is the time that I have.
Sandro De Cecco: You can. Please go ahead, I think.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: So this is the question. Prototyping of the feature not done yet. Are they safe enough? So the name of our item is the Castle high voltage distribution. We, I think, some members of the 40 Committee have seen the Design review discussion. So this is in Chapter 4
Emilija Pantic@UCD: problems issues causing the delay. The main issues. The testing is not completed, due to delays, current interfaces and constraints from the other system quite constrain the cataly high voltage system, so it cannot be significantly a large beyond
Emilija Pantic@UCD: whatever is inside to establish additional safety margins work required to finalize, then the design is to perform a series of tests at the mock-up and at the local high voltage test, stand at the nominal design value from the Tdr
Emilija Pantic@UCD: also. In addition, we, as a we initiated during the design Review B, as throughout, like
Emilija Pantic@UCD: review of what are the safety margins, there is A, there is a request to the offline group and the Science group, to expand the studies on the sensitivity studies, to to vary the the drift field
Emilija Pantic@UCD: and establish what's the minimal drift deal and the corresponding minimal cutth potential, because so far it was always assumed to be a sharp number there delay on other components all critical interfaces, especially the cold ones. This is where the Review B was focused are specified. A delay will only occur if the testing shows that that nominal cutout potential
Emilija Pantic@UCD: cannot be achieved, and that whatever achieved stable voltage falls below the minimal Operational Cutoff potential to be determined.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: scheduled for completion. The mock-up test should be completed within the spring of 2025, and the high voltage test then will continue. I put here by end of 2025, because we need some feedback, so the test will continue. But the
Emilija Pantic@UCD: what's going to be considered useful for Darkside. 20 K. Is, and this is also already late, is the end of 2025 opportunities to recover schedule. This is basically there are a lot of things that needs to be done here, and our group also has other deliverables. So I would not go through that. I'll leave the panel to to read that this is quite specific. We can go on unless there are questions.
Francesco Forti: We can go another slide. So this is just
Francesco Forti: end of spring. End end of spring means June 21, st right.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: I actually would like to defer that answer to someone else.
Sandro De Cecco: It will be discussed.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: That's the exact.
Sandro De Cecco: Presentation. Francis.
Francesco Forti: Okay. Okay.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: Okay, so the
Emilija Pantic@UCD: this is just in pictures. So this was, I just pulled it out from May 24th this year for a 40 meeting. This were some elements that has been, or pictures that have been shared, and I think was presented by our l, 1 manager, and so and so this is from May to January. We have like.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: there are 2 heavy students holding the high voltage cable cathode cable for a mock-up which is to be shipped to today. Next slide.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: I was asked to also say a little bit more about the testing plan. So the most right one is, is the imminent one. It shows actually that high voltage plug and the cable being thermally cycled, we will terminate that with something
Emilija Pantic@UCD: fast, so to say, and moderately safe. And that shows that electrostatic field simulations where we will test only high voltage cables. So that's something that we are going to work 1st on because it's a phased approach in testing in the same time. This is for a mock-up. This is the integrated test in the mock-up.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: And then, as we are going on the high voltage test, and it will offer integrated testing phases, and we will have to pick and choose what there can be tested. All these integrated tests do not
Emilija Pantic@UCD: completely and cannot completely map the situation in dark. Side 20 K. But to our best abilities we are trying to keep the relevant parameters, and that's all up to discussion in the Id group
Emilija Pantic@UCD: and and and and our group same or more conservative, or or we will push and try to push with a higher nominal, with a higher testing voltages, potentials for a cutout to gain more safety margins in testing, and I think a last slide
Emilija Pantic@UCD: just, I was again asked to show you that this is not only on our computers. So these are some components. So, as we said, the 2 high voltage cables are ready. They are not completely terminated, but the preparation process of working with plastic is ready, and they have been annealed and distressed, and so the pink one goes for a mock-up, and the blue one stays for a high voltage test, and we have the resistor links.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: Resistors needs to be soldered, but we practice that for a mock-up, and they are either installed or in the process of being installed. Right now
Emilija Pantic@UCD: we have some of the acrylic pieces done. Coating is what is required. The connection, the system is there. It still also needs. There is still a lot of work. But this is in picture showing you the status. I think this sort of finalizes my slides, unless there are questions.
Francesco Forti: Thank you, Amelia. A quick question. How much margin are you planning on the high voltage? Because the the 73 kilovolt is your nominal right? And so I think that in.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: There are.
Francesco Forti: The mock up. You need some extra voltage to check how much margin you have. And do you have any any idea of how far you want to go.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: Okay? So the furthest that we can go is extra 30%, which is that's limited by high voltage power supply
Emilija Pantic@UCD: in terms of testing voltage.
Francesco Forti: That so that that would mean 100 kilovolts right?
Emilija Pantic@UCD: 100 Kilovolt. Yeah.
Francesco Forti: Right.
Francesco Forti: And do you have any specification about what would be acceptable in terms of
Francesco Forti: additional voltage in the mocap? So if you reach 75, you're happy. If you reach 73, you're not happy. Do you have a specification like that?
Emilija Pantic@UCD: This is this is that this is something for a science working group, or a science team, or or a full collaboration. In some sense, the the, as I, as I said, like the sensitivity studies didn't establish
Emilija Pantic@UCD: what is our minimum drift field? No. So we we have a this nominal drift field and that set up the the high voltage cutoff potential. And that needs to be varied. And I can just tell you, as a reference that the 2 currently running detectors are operating at 10 and 30% of their drift field.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: So in some sense there has to be some safety margins for us. There.
Francesco Forti: Okay, clear. And there are 2.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: Be established.
Marco Rescigno: Just to complete the media, said the.
Marco Rescigno: and to be honest, and also to credit your team. You did ask this question somehow, and we answered briefly. On the 1st meeting we had with you.
Marco Rescigno: and we started already there. The the Pilot. Probably this is the most, I think.
Marco Rescigno: important issue. Since then many things have changed in principle.
Marco Rescigno: If you believe the Monte Carlo, the rate has gone down, and this will soften a bit. But let's say at face value.
Marco Rescigno: What what happened is that
Marco Rescigno: the the amount of events that require some special care into associating s. 1 to S. 2,
Marco Rescigno: which is crucial for us
Marco Rescigno: goes up to, let's say significantly with the with the if. If you decrease the high voltage, of course, if you are discussing few, Kilovolt, there is no issue.
Marco Rescigno: If I mean, if you go to 10%, 30%, 50% of the field, this is
Marco Rescigno: gonna be 14.
Francesco Forti: Okay.
Francesco Forti: I see.
Marco Rescigno: Not only a sensitivity, just
Marco Rescigno: the the complete. I mean this acceptance loss due to impossibility to reconstruct event, basically
Marco Rescigno: rather than sensitivity by itself.
Francesco Forti: Okay.
Francesco Forti: Andrea.
Andrea Longhin: Hi, Emilia, thanks a lot. So I had just 2 quick questions. So, for example, in the final Tpc, or
Andrea Longhin: your design is like a tilted? Does it imply some additional challenges with respect to the mock up? And why is it needed.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: So
Emilija Pantic@UCD: it does, but it's they are like micro or not minuscule, but small challenges. And we have addressed them via electrostatic field simulations, and that has been spend
Emilija Pantic@UCD: like. That's where the l. 1 manager organized the subgroup for the Id in the task force, and whoever was interfacing there was a part of that team. So we sort of like really went around and back and forth, and everyone there is like
Emilija Pantic@UCD: pressed no against the tolerances. The main driver for inclination is that it would simply not work. If it's not inclined, we would not be able even installation wise. And then the the full Tpc structure like Id.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: the full linear detector would not be able to contract without breaking that high voltage connection when we get cooled down. So that's a strong, that's a strong constraint. And so we work that out. And just to tell you, like one of the parameters we are tracing there, which is the parameter that you can trace in electrostatic field. Simulation is a maximum field.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: and we managed to to like to optimize everything there. And you know, like
Emilija Pantic@UCD: the ground vicinity, and everything like so to beef up that high voltage connection where we can, in order so that those fields do not increase, so they increase by one kilovolt or 2, kilovolt, and we are way below our guideline for a maximum field. Now, that's not the only risk. No, in the high voltage world.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: but that's the one that you can address with the design without testing.
Andrea Longhin: That's what like, if I can.
smithajs: What are a couple of the other you mentioned? What are the? Are there other serious risks.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: So overall. The
Emilija Pantic@UCD: yes, possibly possibly because I'm like, I'm like hesitant here to say that there are serious risk. I think there are unknowns. I think maybe that's how one should put it unknowns because based on the our experiences in dark side 50 and all. And and then other experiences like even extending to the protodune. And whatever. Now these are all different geometries of how the high voltage connection is terminated. There
Emilija Pantic@UCD: we believe we do have safety margins there. Now, some experiments have even, like more space, no literally more space, lengthwise radial wise.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: and you can incorporate even more margins. But from the very beginning like. And you know, even in the Tdr. This space was constrained, you know. So because simply we don't. You know, it's a very easy answer. Why, you know we are. It's a precious underground argon. And so it was clear from the very beginning that we are. We have to
Emilija Pantic@UCD: optimize that. So there are possibly issues with the surface discharges, and if anyone knows about that, they are highly dependent on so many parameters like I mean purity, even like the way how the liquid is circulating there, what are the surfaces around it? How, where the charge occurs? Does the charge? Is there something to actually help.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: And when the charge up are the charges going to move, or they're actually going to help you and compensate the field. These are all dynamical problems which can, which even in testing, can be partially addressed. So I will say
Emilija Pantic@UCD: there are some unknowns. And so at least we want to test to get a little bit better feeling. We don't think that we are going like, okay, we are going to fail. We. I actually think we have a good deal of succeeding. On the other hand.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: here is a caution for everyone, and including the 40 Committee, is that if you evaluate all other experiments.
ijocelyn: Okay.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: The high voltage system
Emilija Pantic@UCD: is then even more integrated, you know, even more integrated than we can integrate it in mock up, and the and and the and the high voltage test then, and no one can guarantee that that big system, like everything inside, also all other potential, are going to work are not going to induce the noise, so the final test will be in the dark side. 20 K.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: Did I manage to express my unknowns correctly?
Andrea Zani: Francesco and Steve. I think you're mute.
Francesco Forti: Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. Now you may call them unknowns. Clearly, in bureaucratic language. They're called risks. But yeah, it was very clear.
smithajs: As long as there aren't unknown unknowns.
Francesco Forti: So in.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: We, we are we. We have some experience. Yes.
smithajs: Yeah, yeah.
Emilija Pantic@UCD: And the design is scaled by that one. And in the review B. You can see some of the details. No, of those envelopes. Calculation.
Francesco Forti: Right.
Francesco Forti: So we need to keep track of the time, because I see that Axel needs to leave by roughly, and also, Marsha, I think we'll have to leave. So let's continue. And if there are, you know missing points, we we can just then iterate offline and ask more questions.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah, thank you very much, Amelia. So we go to part 3. I left the floor to Andrea. Part 3 on person power, logistics and infrastructure. You may share the screen.
Andrea Zani: You want me to share. Okay.
Andrea Zani: I wasn't expecting that just a second.
Sandro De Cecco: Want me to share. I do.
Andrea Zani: Yes, please. It's faster.
Sandro De Cecco: Okay.
Andrea Zani: Because I have to pass the word to Axel in a moment.
Sandro De Cecco: It is.
Andrea Zani: So let's go to next slide. Question 3.1 do. The Us. And Canada Tpc, teams have enough right kind of personal power. Are they ready? So here the answer is based on the recent tax exercise that we made to create a deliverable, complete, deliverable table. For up to the detector completion.
Andrea Zani: This was done in part for the Mou definition, but most importantly, to identify within the collaboration across all the projects, the personal power, needs, and availability.
Andrea Zani: We can say that all activities have the final responsibles. The fabrication activities are covered with the present funding and personnel. Most installation activities are assigned on a best effort base, which means that, especially for the Us. And Canadian Institutes, they might not have, as of today, the full funding coverage.
Andrea Zani: But they are willing to look actively for for coverage where funding coverage where needed.
Andrea Zani: The Us. And Canadian Pi's have been working on the design of Dark side 20 K. And the mock up so far. So they're gaining and gained experience of the specific issues of the detector. And in this sense the personnel is the right kind of person power. The personnel we have now is the right kind of person power.
Andrea Zani: As mentioned, there has been an effort to identify thefts required for all steps of installations. Since the full funding coverage you're not assigned, we don't have a list of names, and we
Andrea Zani: we have to make sure that we have the the available person power when the installation starts, matches the required person power.
Andrea Zani: This is the status up up to today.
smithajs: That's a that's a time dependent comment, I mean.
smithajs: Excuse me, good for the next 2 or 3 months. How are your personnel compared to the needs.
Andrea Zani: That is covered.
smithajs: Okay.
Andrea Zani: The publication activities and beyond the next 2, 3 months. This is these are covered. The the requirement matches, the the availability.
Francesco Forti: So fabrication is covered. The the issue is installation and will have to be optimized. And okay.
Andrea Zani: Yes.
Andrea Zani: and if there are no other questions, I would leave the floor to Axel for question 3.2 this is just an introductory slide. Axel will give you more details about the the tooling that is needed in Canada and then in in in for publication and installation.
Francesco Forti: Sorry just to clarify on, on person power on the previous slides. This includes the the Canadian situation. Right? So when you say publication activities are covered includes all the Canadian person power.
Andrea Zani: Yes, yes.
Francesco Forti: Okay.
Sandro De Cecco: Axel, do you want the screen? Or actually.
aksel: No, that's fine. I was just saying, go ahead. So
aksel: so here's a list of the major tools
aksel: that we have that are going to be required in order to oh, to to integrate
aksel: the acrylic you know, and
aksel: hope, I think we've thought through all the way to the end.
aksel: So now I have a bunch of slides which goes through each one. So I'm not gonna read this. Now.
aksel: Go down one more. This is the same.
aksel: So just to start with already in Alberta, we do have, you know, 3 critical things. We have
aksel: the the 5 axis Toshiba mill, which does allow you to machine something.
aksel: There, I'm there you're seeing me. You can see. My!
aksel: I guess you can't see my mouse if Sandra is sharing.
aksel: Oh, so there's me.
aksel: There's machining deep.
aksel: Okay? And so deep was 1.8 meters across.
aksel: And here we're machining on the 5 axis nil
aksel: plans are not to use it. So my hope is
aksel: that we will get all of the machining done by Rpt.
aksel: And it's only if there are critical things, or there are things that
aksel: you know we worry about that. That would would be done. Here, then, we have this scanner. This is absolutely critical
aksel: for the
aksel: Oh, for the installation we've used it in the
aksel: mock up. It allows you to scan. It's a laser scanner handheld. You move it over a surface.
aksel: and it measures things to 25 microns, and it'll cover a 4 by 4 meter.
aksel: 4 by 4 by 4 meter object.
aksel: and so we can. We can scan the barrel and make sure that it is right. You'll see pictures from the scanner when people do the mock up.
aksel: and then we have a 300 cubic meter per hour. Radon stripping plant that
aksel: we have. Will you be fed into our clean room
aksel: next slide. Oh, and interrupt me if you have questions, I I'm happy to be interrupted at any time.
aksel: so go ahead.
aksel: So, going through the list of tools. 1st is the exoskeleton. And and so basically, these are fixtures that allow us to to lift pieces with a crane. Everything has to be lifted with a crane.
aksel: and to manipulate it to turn it over. Put it in the evaporator, and we have both just a simple hook on the side of the anode and a
aksel: a lifting structure like this. And we have worked through the
aksel: fea and make sure that we're not putting any
aksel: stress on the acrylic. So this design is is quite advanced.
aksel: And then there is a so-called red box. For each of these objects. A red box is basically a container that is a radon
aksel: air dust.
aksel: Oh.
aksel: proof that we can put like the anode into. And the wire grid actually goes in the same
aksel: in the same red box, and allow us to oh.
aksel: store it and ship it and manipulate it without damaging.
aksel: And so we do as much of the installation as we can with the thing still left in the red box, and then remove it.
aksel: Okay, then go on next.
aksel: So this is a cathode exoskeleton. It's a bigger clamp and a lifting beam. All of these pieces are between one and 2 tons, or maybe a little less than one ton, but
aksel: but the anode, I think, is 900 kg.
aksel: So and this is these have to be
aksel: the exoskeletal we need for the dry fit the red box we we need
aksel: at the end of our fabrication here in Alberta.
aksel: So here is the red box for the cathode. Let me see how the cathode sits in it and is held. It's sealed.
aksel: Next, here is the barrel exoskeleton
aksel: and next one is the X is the red box.
aksel: So it's a sealed thing that's integrated with the hanging brackets.
aksel: Next.
aksel: So in order to put things together, we have a set of tables.
aksel: So here we're seeing the barrel assembly table on a rail system. This has to be moved in and out.
aksel: It slides on the rails. The rails have have to be
aksel: compatible with Cr 2, the floor, because they, their main function, is to spread the load, so that because these tables have to take
aksel: you know, 10 to 20 tons when we have things built. So the the table we need this for the dry fit. It is well, I have the data there. We've gone through
aksel: pretty advanced design on this with Fea, making sure it fits engineering code, satisfy seismicity.
aksel: And and this 1st table is a table on which we assemble the barrel
aksel: go to the next slide.
aksel: Here you see the barrel as assembled.
aksel: This table has adjustment things so we can move things up and down.
aksel: and we'll scan the top of the barrel. There are a bunch of pins there that are indexed to the
aksel: to the acrylic on the inside. We can guarantee that the top face of the
aksel: a barrel is level to a hundred microns.
aksel: and we would adjust that inside, in this configuration with the oh, with this table.
aksel: So after we have built the barrel and installed the corner brackets.
aksel: then we have this cathode insertion table.
aksel: It doesn't have any adjustment, it's bigger. It allows us to transfer the load from that installation table onto this table which holds things more on the outside.
aksel: and then we can bring in the cathode and lift the cathode into the barrel.
aksel: It has some rods that you see here on the right.
aksel: which are screw rods screw jacks, so we can very slowly lift up the cathode, and we have ways to both rotate and tip the cathode so that we can make sure that the cathode doesn't touch the barrel as it gets lifted
aksel: again. This is a little hairy, because these things are 4 meters in diameter, and the tolerances are a few millimeters, but we do have the scanner, and we do have the adjustment built into the system, and we'll try all this out in the dry fit before we go to
aksel: to the cryostat.
aksel: So here is the table, and then go to the next slide.
aksel: It shows the barrel sitting on the table right as we're ready to remove our insertion table.
aksel: And so we remove that, and then we'll bring in the cathode table.
aksel: which you can see in the next slide.
aksel: This is a cathode table, and it will hold the cathode in the knee wall. And
aksel: there's lots of details here. This these, by the way.
aksel: are fairly advanced in their design, but their review won't happen until
aksel: Oh, several several months from now. Oh.
aksel: yeah, they're not complicated devices. We can order them. They're not high, tolerant, high precision devices.
aksel: We can order them from local fabricators and expect that it's not a long delivery time, although we haven't actually sent them out for quote at this point.
aksel: Next awesome. So here.
Francesco Forti: Hi this tooling devices? Are they part of your internal Abcd review, or are they outside them? That's cool.
aksel: They're outside the Abcd. They're part of the integration.
Francesco Forti: Okay.
aksel: Okay. So here is the the cathode being installed.
aksel: So underneath, and go to the next one, you can see it being.
aksel: This is, you know, showing how it the the screws interact interface with the
aksel: with the cathode. It will take, you know, a day for people to screw this thing up a millimeter
aksel: a minute, or something like that.
aksel: You know 3 places, but that's just life.
aksel: Then go to the next one.
aksel: This is the bottom optical plane table.
aksel: And so, after we've installed the cathode, it gets held in place with a bracket, and then we bring in the bottom optical plane on this table, and then we'll lower
aksel: the upper barrel with the cathode onto
aksel: the the bottom optical plane that's sitting here, and next
Francesco Forti: You move to the evaporator. So
Francesco Forti: this, this this tooling. If I if I can summarize what you said, this is in an advanced stage of design. But it's not finalized. It needs to be reviewed, and nothing is constructed. Is that a fair statement.
aksel: That's a fair statement.
Francesco Forti: Okay.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah, we are targeting for this for the reviewing of these 2 links and the Assembly procedure. We are targeting internally. The month of May
Sandro De Cecco: 2025, in a way
Sandro De Cecco: that we can meet the following steps, and we have the tooling available when needed.
aksel: So these, these the not the red boxes, but the rest of the tooling, has to be available for the dry fit.
aksel: So then go on to the skip the next slide and go to this next.
aksel: So here is the heavy lab.
aksel: and shown in the heavy lab is the Xy tape. Okay, the cyan area here
aksel: is the size of the cryostat in at Lngs.
aksel: and so we'll mark that on the floor, and we'll when we do the drive fit and we do the assembly, we'll see that we can do everything within that cyan area, although we will have extra area to store things. You know, we can do things a little bit differently. The Xy table is a Carlton thing. It's what's used to do. The
aksel: the klevios coding.
aksel: And so it's sitting here next.
aksel: So here is top view of the evaporator
aksel: sitting inside that XY table. This evaporator is huge, right? It's taller than I am.
aksel: You need ladders to get up on it. There's a hundred bolts there
aksel: to open this thing up and put something in is. Gonna take several days.
aksel: Go on.
aksel: And here we're showing a barrel panel as it sits inside the evaporator.
aksel: and as as it will be done for Xy coating evaporator is used both to evaporate Tp on. It's used for holding things in place while we do
aksel: klevios coating, and it's used as an oven for annealing next.
aksel: Yeah. And here is the anode inside the evaporator next.
aksel: and skip this. That's a cathode
aksel: so here we're showing how the the dry fit would would work. Well.
aksel: yeah. So here is the rails, the rails.
aksel: you know. We're really testing out the rails. They do nothing structural in Alberta, except, you know. Provide a place for the
aksel: for the tools to move on. But here we're showing how we build the barrel onto the anode adjustment table.
aksel: This is in the radar in. Okay?
aksel: This got a little confused the way I'm showing it, because I'm also discussing the Radon lab here.
aksel: So before we start with this dry fit.
aksel: we are going to clear out this whole lab.
aksel: We're going to put in a welded, stainless steel floor.
aksel: We are going to coat the walls with
aksel: tropak, or Vmcpp is a generic name of vacuum metal, coated polypropylene, which is a Radon barrier.
aksel: We already have brought our Radon compressed air.
aksel: You know the meters. It's it's more than a few meters
aksel: down a hallway and into this room.
aksel: and so it that is ready.
aksel: We haven't got a final design for the roof.
aksel: We will do the dry fit.
aksel: No, we'll install the floor.
aksel: Then we do the dry FET.
aksel: Then we will install the evaporator.
aksel: Then we will seal up the chain rule.
aksel: Is this is the order of steps there.
aksel: Alright, next.
aksel: Okay. And then we have some discussion. We've had some discussion about after the dry fit.
aksel: Then each of the components has to be sanded to remove the Radon daughters they've picked up after exposure to normal air.
aksel: and then we are going going to go through a deep cleaning exercise, where
aksel: we pressure, wash them and run the drain water through filters until nothing comes out of the water.
aksel: So this is an idea for how we will do the
aksel: the sanding and cleaning. But this is still very early conceptual.
aksel: Because.
aksel: yeah, just because the the people we have and the task we have this doesn't have to be designed, and if push comes to shove, we can do this by hand. It will take forever. It will take it will take longer. We might be not be able to do it as well. But we could do this with, you know, 5 people and me, and measuring and and remeasuring
aksel: because we have to do be precise as well next slide
aksel: we also have this glove box. This is a
aksel: that'll get incorporated in the Lngs assembly. The idea is that the coated components have to be kept away from air, and you want to protect them from people, and the dust and the garbage that comes, and so as much of the assembly as possible we will do inside the glove box.
aksel: And so we are testing various ideas here. So this would fit around the barrel. This is actually half size. We have another one. That's a 5th size that we've been tinkering with.
aksel: Is that the end of mine? Or is there one more.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah, it is the end of yours. Yes.
aksel: So any questions there. Sorry I talk fast.
smithajs: I had one Axel, in in your presentation to the previous review.
Francesco Forti: You mentioned.
smithajs: That you
smithajs: when you do the dry fit. The reason one of the reasons you're doing it, of course, is to make sure everything fits properly, but you said you might have to do some
smithajs: refitting, and so I'm just wondering
smithajs: what the likelihood of that is, the scope of it, and what allowance in the schedule you've made for having to do that.
aksel: So oh, we haven't put that explicitly into the schedule. Okay? So we've assumed that things will fit.
aksel: Is that a good assumption.
aksel: It's it is. It is hard to say, okay, so that the ways
aksel: you know these are big pieces.
smithajs: Yeah, I know they're scared. They scare the hell out of me.
aksel: Yeah, it should. It should you know. And so.
aksel: you know, in a way, I'd be surprised if we got away with 0 rework.
aksel: and we there wasn't anything we had to do.
aksel: But I don't know how you schedule it.
aksel: I mean.
smithajs: I guess you put in a contingency of some kind. It's about all you can do.
aksel: Yeah, I mean, I think I think
aksel: I don't think that's in there now.
aksel: and I don't know. You know it could be that when we try to put this together, we have to adjust every single piece which would be a huge schedule hit.
aksel: But but it's necessary, right? It's not something you can just say, we won't do.
smithajs: Absolutely.
Francesco Forti: Paolo.
Paolo Lombardi: Excellent. Let me understand if I understood correctly. So you have one evaporator chamber.
Paolo Lombardi: only one, and it is needed both for annealing and coating for Clavius and Tbb.
aksel: Yeah, I mean, because because those are closely related activities right after you've coded, you have to bake.
aksel: And if you're going to bake the acrylic. You have to go through an annealing cycle.
aksel: and when you
aksel: when you do Tpv coating, you may have to bake, maybe not to the full temperature. But to get rid of outgassing in the acrylic. So you get a reasonable vacuum to do the Tpv coating. And so you need the heating. You need to have a vacuum chamber this size, and you need it to be at the time you're doing all of these coatings.
Paolo Lombardi: So. But in this case it's a long series of operation. So 1st we have to machine and then annealing, and then.
aksel: Hopefully, we get hopefully, we get them machined and hopefully they fit.
aksel: But it is a long, it is.
aksel: Yeah, there's no way around.
Paolo Lombardi: Cannot parallelize. It will be a long sequence, 1st the kneeling and then the coating, so it will take.
aksel: A lot of.
Paolo Lombardi: Time, is it.
aksel: We won't do that. No, it will be the coding
aksel: we will get. The pieces from Rpt annealed.
aksel: Rpt. Will probably have a kneel them 3 times. They'll kneel it when it's when it's cast they'll kneel it before machining, and they'll kneel it after machining.
aksel: and then we will get we will get them, and we will do the dry fit.
aksel: It might be that we need to anneal them.
aksel: to bend them a little bit to make them so they'll fit together right?
aksel: That might. That would be an anil. Then we can do the coding.
aksel: and at the end of the coding we do another anneal.
Paolo Lombardi: Let's see.
aksel: But these things I you know.
aksel: as I say, you can't take the lid off this.
aksel: It it's 5 meters in diameter.
aksel: right? There's a lot of bolts in there, and it's a vacuum system with a turbo pump.
aksel: you know. Nothing is gonna go fast.
aksel: but that's the size that's you can't do anything about that.
smithajs: So I.
Paolo Lombardi: Thank you.
smithajs: Yeah, so how
smithajs: has the schedule been worked out in detail for this? Because it sounds like each operation takes quite a bit of time.
smithajs: This is it.
aksel: Schedule? A?
aksel: Well, okay.
Sandro De Cecco: Well, it's already in the in- in our Wps and the Primavera that you have the updates. Let's say regularly, I all this operation are already in the schedule. Now
Sandro De Cecco: we'll we'll have to to do the final design of the final installation, especially in the but this part is already in the schedule. Yes.
aksel: It. Yeah.
aksel: Okay, just
aksel: however, the schedule is made there. There are a few things we should put in there right? We have to make the schedule before you have the design.
aksel: and and and you know we've gotten the
aksel: the design. But we don't have the design of everything here. We don't have exactly the way we're going to lift it.
aksel: We don't have exactly how we manipulate it and how long it takes.
aksel: So you know, as we learn more. That schedule has to change.
Marzio Nessi: So, if I might say
Marzio Nessi: this is contingency on the schedule will will be part of, probably of the risk register will be a component which is cost and a component which is scheduled
Marzio Nessi: contingency.
aksel: So I have to. I have to head off to class, so I will.
Francesco Forti: Yeah, I had another question. But maybe I just wanted to be reminded, what is the relative role of Bertha and Carlaton? And in this, in this process.
aksel: So Alberta is
aksel: is in charge of the volume in in Carlton the area? No Carlton is doing the coatings.
aksel: and so Carlton has, you know, the the vacuum chamber
aksel: the the tooling, the tooling for the vacuum chamber is Carlton's, and the the clevios and Tpb. Coatings are Carlton's.
aksel: the the Acrylic, the dry fit, the assembly tools.
aksel: or and the yeah, or Alberta's.
Francesco Forti: So the the big piece is 1st go to Alberta, then to Carneton, then back to Alberta.
aksel: Everything is done at at Alberta, because.
Francesco Forti: We don't radon free air in Carlton, and we don't have a place to put the evaporator in. Carlton.
Francesco Forti: Okay, okay.
smithajs: That that's good news.
Sandro De Cecco: And, by the way, the evaporator has already been ordered, this is, and it's with the help of Nsf. And this is under Williams.
Sandro De Cecco: the metallic structure of the large evaporator.
aksel: Okay.
Sandro De Cecco: Alright, so I'll I will run you oxen.
Sandro De Cecco: So so we go ahead.
Andrea Zani: Yes, if there are no other questions concerning the previous question.
Bruce Vogelaar: Maybe you want to erase the stuff that's on the screen.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah, I was going to if I'm able to.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah, this is done.
Andrea Zani: In in the meantime. Okay, go on. So the next question concern the status of the design of the cleaner room, the cryostat cleaner room for Tpc. Installation.
Andrea Zani: So the design and procurement has been split in 3 main elements which are the metallic structure. The cranes needed the crane needed inside for the manipulation of the pieces and all that concerns the walls and the plans for circulation filtering
Andrea Zani: the structure design is complete and ready for procurement. We were aiming to start the tender in 2024, but did not manage for administrative reasons. For the Green Room cranes. We have a design, and the technical, for the documentation for the tender
Andrea Zani: is is almost ready.
Andrea Zani: We have a market survey underway. We had the 1st quotation which gave us the the starting cost at around 70 kilo euros, and we're asking for more quotations.
Andrea Zani: But we are almost ready for procurement. On the other hand, the design of the walls and air segression plan plans are at a more preliminary stage. We have a goal to complete them. In the 1st quarter of 2025
Andrea Zani: we already had a round of eye rolling simulation, which have been also, I think, were shown also to the committee already.
Andrea Zani: There is still open the possibility to integrate in the walls of this clean room some parts of the crh one of the cleaner rooms in in or see.
Andrea Zani: but the dismounting of the structure is not. I mean, I wrote, here is halted in the sense that we have to define whether we have the funding to
Andrea Zani: to do this operation this is a possibility. It's not I mean, the the procurement will will be structured such that the the entirety of the the walls for the nuclear room would be
Andrea Zani: considered. And then, if we have the chance to reuse some of the material that is from Crh, this will be.
Andrea Zani: this will be good.
Andrea Zani: Then the connections to the random filtering plant already existing in Oc. Will be part of this last procurement. The routing for the connection has been discussed. We will. Ngs here. I mean that we had the 1st proposal that has been under review. By the by, the lab, however, the final solution, and the schedule for the installation of these routing lines will have to be agreed that, taking into account the work scene on this mantling activities and their schedule
Andrea Zani: Related to the clear room. The pre-assembly of the Cryosta 1st floor was finalized at the company site, so, just as a reminder, the 1st floor was already procured and constructed with your 1st pre-assembly at the company load test and material acceptance works is actually performed in December.
Andrea Zani: and the installation is actually following is going to follow the installation of the cryogenic internal lines inside the cryostat. It is now foreseen for March, and Cern is already at work, you know. C, for the installation of proximity cryogenic, and soon after the internal cryogenic lines will follow.
Andrea Zani: there is one more structure which is it's called the dome. Cantilever structure is a structure to interface with the metallic structure of the clean room that will support the dome of the stainless steel vessel. While we do the connection of the Tpc. To it, we have a preliminary design to that that is completed with this is going to be a separate tender, and we have to go through a final design from the preliminary one.
Andrea Zani: And, Sandra, if you go to the next slide, there are a couple of pictures for the metallic structure, the advanced design of the metallic structure
Andrea Zani: that are here just as a as a reference. You can see, how it interfaces with the cryostat
Andrea Zani: roof, and a set of requirements for for the crane which has been defined within the inner detector working group. So maximum weight, 2 tons with 2 hook, 5 tons. Sorry, with 2 hooks, both able to carry 5 tons, and this is needed to manipulate large objects.
Sandro De Cecco: And, by the way, on this, if I may add all the parts that were shown by Axel before. So the exoskeletons and the red boxes, plus the parts that should be contained in them, has been cross check, and then the hook is dimensioned to be able to sustain those parts. So this is integrated already.
Andrea Zani: Yes, the particularly the design of the crane, went through several iterations in order to make sure that it was able to carry all the pieces
Andrea Zani: that need to go inside the the cryostat.
Andrea Zani: The next slide is for our next question. I don't know if you have questions for.
Francesco Forti: Yeah, I don't have any any question on this one.
Francesco Forti: Okay, let's move on.
Andrea Zani: Okay. The next question is, what are the plans for the team at Lngs for the Tpc installation? So the plan is that we are creating a new installation support team in the org chart or charted. This means that we will have on site installation team made of people that are local or that spend here
Andrea Zani: lot of their time. We have a main manager installation manager that for the moment is identified in in Marco Carlini. And we'll see a set of deputy installation manager that will rotate to to support the manager. It's me and Juli and a 3rd person that we plan to
Andrea Zani: to hire pretty soon, and then we.
Francesco Forti: Remind me, the installation takes about 6 months, 6 to 8 months. What is the more or less the time needed for installation.
Andrea Zani: This is the ballpark value for the installation inside the cryostat. Then there will be all the time needed to after the cryostat is, I mean we. After that we needed to extract.
Ako Jamil: The bananas. You.
Andrea Zani: P. Sorry. There is some background noise from Cr. 2.
Andrea Zani: There is the time that we need to extract the Tpc. From the cryostat installed in the the stainless steel vessel. Close the Tpc. Lift it, and then there will be a few months, 3, 4 months for the final operations which include both installing the cryogenics, the underground cryogenics inside
Andrea Zani: the cryostat and the outer veto, and above that to do the connections on the roof of the
Andrea Zani: of the cryostat.
Francesco Forti: Okay.
Andrea Zani: Just to complete this, we are also going to have another figure that is an installation safety coordinator. This is a figure that goes beyond the glimos. So it's not seem I mean, the glimos is the group leader in matter of safety for the experiment. This installation safety coordinator is going to be a person that interfaces also with the other activities of the lab.
Andrea Zani: We plan to hire a person, a professional for this specific position actually in the next few months, meaning that by by end of January end of this week we're going to start the the procurement phase. This person will follow both the activities of the install, the infrastructure installation.
Andrea Zani: and most probably the interface with the vaccine dismounting activities, and in the longest term an interface between the dark side activities and other activities in Oc.
Andrea Zani: Then the second bullet here concerns the.
Francesco Forti: Regarding. So if you go back here, the the team here. So is this. How is this team put together? Is that is that. Are you planning to use existing personnel? That is, it goes to the Grants also for a year, roughly, or are you planning to hire people?
Francesco Forti: don't.
Francesco Forti: What is both.
Andrea Zani: The the base. The base team that is laid out here is basically made of the people of the local team that are already working here since the installation of the cryostat plus a new engineer to be hired for, let's say, the installation support and this new professional to be hired for the installation Safety Coordinator position.
Andrea Zani: Then I expected that during the main Dpc. Installation phase we will have here a number of people from Insn, Nfn. And Sf. In Canada.
Francesco Forti: His number. His number is roughly 1015, 20. What? What.
Andrea Zani: Sorry the the number here is is 5. So the the installation team that you see here is 5 that will be complemented by the people that will be present on site during the phases of the installation.
Marzio Nessi: In real.
Francesco Forti: Sorry.
Marzio Nessi: Andrea. You forgot there will be also a couple, 2 or 3 technicians.
Marzio Nessi: Yes, to receive all the other technicians. So that
Marzio Nessi: so we have 2 or 3 technician which are, will be there from the beginning to the end, which are central controlled by us, plus, then the technicians which come from from the collaboration.
Andrea Zani: Yes, here I was not mentioning technicians. Actually, the the 3 that master is mentioning got this subject of a procurement that is actually already ongoing. So in a few months we should have them already ready on site
Andrea Zani: and plus, of course, there will be the technicians and the personnel collaboration taking shifts, and for the installation during all phases of the installation.
Francesco Forti: Okay. Thanks.
Marzio Nessi: And the.
Andrea Zani: The other point of this.
Marzio Nessi: In the mou. We have specified
Marzio Nessi: every for every activity. How long these people have to to be at the lab.
Marzio Nessi: and how many people from coming from the various institution has to come for a specific work
Marzio Nessi: in the lab.
Marzio Nessi: Okay, typically 2, 3 months, depending on the on their activity.
Francesco Forti: Okay.
Andrea Zani: Yeah. And the only other point I wanted to make is to to say that the the team which already working on every day on the on the infrastructure today started the preparation of the procedure
Andrea Zani: for the cryostat access and the work within. And this is both from the technical point of view, and from the safety point of view, we started interactions with the Ngs concerning safety aspects and the safety course that will be needed by personnel. This is a discussion that started is not completed, but it's it's ongoing.
Sandro De Cecco: Relax.
Andrea Zani: Next slide.
Andrea Zani: So what are the logistics and shipping plans for the various components, especially bulky ones?
Andrea Zani: So we have a initial development of the shipping plan. This is based both on a basic set of requirements that we already know we need and the experience that we are gaining with the mock up. The mockup parts have been delivered in the last few months. Not all shipments were smooth, and we are, I mean, the analysis of the issues are in progress to be used as an input for the definition of the shipping plans for Darkside, 20 k.
Andrea Zani: On the right side. We had the custom regulations slow down sounds.
Sandro De Cecco: I'm sorry I.
Andrea Zani: We've gained experience with custom regulations and the more common issues that might might arise when doing these these shipments.
Andrea Zani: This has been. We have gained a deep experience with the cryostat and the cryogenics, and the mock up
Andrea Zani: we expect the deliveries to go directly to underground lab temporary space. Occupation is to be agreed with Lngs according to the Oc status. So this will be dealt with in in real time, almost in real time, because it will depend on which is which is the occupation of the Oc. By other activities.
Andrea Zani: The assembled applicant planes from Cr 2 to Olc. This will be the focus of the dedicated deliverable in the mou and a ship dedicated shipping plan.
Andrea Zani: We have high, actually, engineering personnel we experience on this topic was introduced in the collaboration already, and so it's available.
Andrea Zani: And then for what concerns the liquid underground Argon vessel and their positioning during filling, we had 1st proposal for positioning, which was agreed by the lab. But then the lab came back, asking if there is a possibility to store, also a liquid nitrogen dewar
Andrea Zani: in Oc for dark side expressly for dark side. This led to further discussions on how to to handle the space, and it it is ongoing.
Andrea Zani: We don't see any potential stop, but we simply have to define the position of this vessel, which will be there temporarily only for the filling.
Andrea Zani: and then we'll be brought outside.
Andrea Zani: So the basic requirements for the shipments we already know we need those at least for the acrylic panels. Well, we need, we will need to have at least one test transport, and we will have to have instrumentation, accelerometer shock detectors, temperature, humidity monitors for the acrylic in particular.
Andrea Zani: We don't have a dedicated budget, especially for the extra transport, and we so therefore we need the 2
Andrea Zani: define the the actual cost and the sharing needs that. In order to to do this.
Francesco Forti: Only for the extra transport, or also for the instrumentation of the boxes that you're missing. Budget.
Andrea Zani: Well, both, but the instrumentation is is actually low. Low. Budget is made of low budget items that
Andrea Zani: that can be bought with, I mean at least I would say few €100 for per shipment. So that should not be a problem.
Francesco Forti: Okay.
Andrea Zani: I mean, that goes it's very minimal.
Francesco Forti: You're missing budget for the extra transportation to test your procedures.
Andrea Zani: Well, I'm not saying that we are missing budget we need to check because but this is because we I think this is important. These are important step to make it in was not considered so far. So we need to verify whether we are within budget for that also, if we need to allocate more money for the test shipment.
Francesco Forti: Yeah, I also would say that this should happen early on, so that if you have any modification needed on the boxes or on the procedures, you can incorporate them without delays.
Andrea Zani: Yes, very good.
Andrea Zani: Next, I guess. Sandra.
Sandro De Cecco: Do we go next? Or we go back to the beginning? At this point, Andrea, what do you prefer? Because probably final slide is better to keep as final.
Andrea Zani: I would say so if Marzi agrees, since he has to leave in 20 min.
Marzio Nessi: Yeah, let's go to the next.
Marzio Nessi: The timing.
Andrea Zani: So I'll be an opportunity.
Sandro De Cecco: Schedule.
Andrea Zani: Yeah.
Sandro De Cecco: Okay.
Andrea Zani: So what? Here we put the scheduling, which is the the same one that is you're going to receive in a few days for the with the Q 4 report.
Andrea Zani: and, as you can see.
Andrea Zani: the detector is still on the critical path. We have actually a milestone after the end of the critical path, which is all underground. Argon arrive to Ngs. But this is simply because the milestone attends the critical path. Is detector ready for filling, so by then we will need to have the 1st 2 vessels of underground argon ready, and then the shipment will keep coming during the filling phase.
Andrea Zani: and
Andrea Zani: I don't know if you want any specific comment on this, or if you want to review and ask questions.
Andrea Zani: you can see that for the acrylic preparation and coatings we have allocated around, let's say, around one and a half years.
Sandro De Cecco: Well.
smithajs: I guess I maybe it should be a question for Axel, but he said he was expecting that the
smithajs: acrylic would come machined. What if what if it all the machining and kneeling is not done when the stuff arrives? Is there? What's the probability of that? It seems that would really blow your schedule if you had to machine it.
Andrea Zani: This is
Andrea Zani: I mean the the machining is part of a separate procurement with respect to the material procurement.
Andrea Zani: but I mean, I don't think there is a probability that this arrives as a surprise without machining. I mean, this has to be.
Andrea Zani: I guess, Axel was meaning that this is not a procurement that is out yet, so to be finalized with the company. But
Sandro De Cecco: There is a slide on this.
Andrea Zani: Yes, but indeed there is a slide in the previous questions.
smithajs: Yeah, it's just my comment. I can see a few sort of transition points
smithajs: that the schedule that really do affect the schedule that aren't known precisely yet, and so well.
Francesco Forti: Let me. Let me 1st ask a a question. And, Andrea, I mean the schedule you you are showing here is not the one that was sent to the Rrb. A week ago. So I'm wondering.
Andrea Zani: It's it's slightly different. Yes, we realize that this contains some very recent updates. But it's if I'm not mistaken, if I haven't missed something. It's consistent with that one within one quarter which is
Francesco Forti: Yeah. Right? For instance, in this one, you see, I see. I see the Pmma delivered to Alberta in in quarter 3, 25, and in the other one it's it's a quarter later. Actually, it's the end, the end of
Francesco Forti: At the end of the 25.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah. But this data now is correct. You know the acrylic barrel, pure pmma, are delivered to Alberta. They are being produced in terms of casting right now. There is a slide on that, and actually the machining will start
Sandro De Cecco: in May beginning of May, and the delivery will be indeed in end of July or so. Okay, so now, it's a date that is
Sandro De Cecco: is becoming more and more realistic. And actually, the review you just seen 1 h ago is basically motivated in order for us to deliver to rpt the final machining design of the barrel, which are the 1st part going to be produced and delivered in the Berta this summer.
Francesco Forti: No, I'm happy to to hear that. I'm just surprised that, you know. Week, less than 2 weeks ago there was a different schedule. So that's that's that's the point.
smithajs: Yeah, and and.
Marzio Nessi: And getting confused and like.
Francesco Forti: Still want to see.
Marzio Nessi: So we are also worried because this this has happened so fast, this change. So we have given us the possibility, not the mandate
Marzio Nessi: before the 13 to revise all these changes and make sure that we accept because some of these are maybe too early than
Marzio Nessi: so the the reschedule we are going to finalize it for the 13th of of next month.
Marzio Nessi: You know, it's very difficult. There are many actors, and many people will make changes.
Marzio Nessi: and we need to review it internally.
Francesco Forti: Okay.
Alessio Caminata: Yeah, if I may add the one thing on the critic.
Alessio Caminata: the idea is to have the bar before cathode, because those will be the 1st part to be produced, but also the 1st part that will go
Alessio Caminata: for the dry fit.
Alessio Caminata: In this way we try to catch up any possible problem as soon as possible.
Alessio Caminata: So that's why, even if you will see here that the acrylic preparation sorry the
Alessio Caminata: the acrylic, the end of the acrylic in Canada will be.
Francesco Forti: Yeah.
Alessio Caminata: At Q. 4 we will have this staggered delivery.
Francesco Forti: Okay.
Paolo Lombardi: I would like to add a comment.
Paolo Lombardi: So I I saw from Axa that
Paolo Lombardi: the facility in Alberta is not yet ready.
Paolo Lombardi: the evaporator is still under fabrication. The the floor has to be completed. They should decide how to lift the the lid of the evaporator and all the other mechanical parts, so I wonder if they could be ready for July this year?
Sandro De Cecco: July is not the start of the operation that needs the clean room power. The clean room will be needed well, after in 2026. As Axel explained you, the 1st operation in the heavy lab in Alberta will be dirty operations. Okay, all the dry feet is dirty.
Sandro De Cecco: not in the clean room. Then would be the evaporator coming, and then the rest of the clean room and the roof will be mounted. So we aim for the month of May to finalize all the technical specifications and the
Sandro De Cecco: of the infrastructures and of the tool in a way that things maybe fit in the schedule that we are showing. Indeed, so the month of May Review will treat seriously all this aspect.
Sandro De Cecco: including.
Francesco Forti: I understand that. But frankly, I mean, it's not only the evaporator or the clean room, it's all the tooling that still needs to be finalized in terms of design and then constructed. Now it's not. Maybe most of the tooling is relatively straightforward, but still requires time, and if you finalize the design in May, and you think you have the tooling done and ready for the dry fit in July.
Sandro De Cecco: No, no, the traffic is not in July. Yeah, the feet is not in July.
Francesco Forti: So what happens in July.
Andrea Zani: Material starts arriving.
Sandro De Cecco: That's arriving at the end of the machining of the barrelator. Repeat.
Sandro De Cecco: then there is the anode and cat that will be bonded because they required to be bonded, and the machine.
Francesco Forti: What happens in Alberta? What happens in Alberta, you know, starting with your empty 0 here.
Sandro De Cecco: Like. Unless you said then at the start of the drive, it will start in unless you don't have the date. But during the fall. And this requires basically the 1st tool to be ready.
Sandro De Cecco: which is the table. But the tools are pretty much in a very advanced stage of design, actually, and even if we did not review formally, internally. But most of these tools, especially the 1st one needed for the barrel assembly, are in very advanced at the state of design.
Francesco Forti: Anyway, so we will have time to discuss this. But you know, I'm
Francesco Forti: this seems to be, you know, a easily predictable source of delay. But we'll see.
Francesco Forti: Okay, let's continue.
Andrea Zani: Andrew, I guess that you can go back to the questions of the group one now.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah, yeah, indeed. Luca, I.
Luca Grandi: Yep.
Sandro De Cecco: View, the the video.
Luca Grandi: No, you can use it, you can.
Luca Grandi: You got it.
Sandro De Cecco: So.
Luca Grandi: Let 5. Light, 5.
Sandro De Cecco: Here we are, yeah.
Luca Grandi: So are the final Tpc design drawing complete. Well, I think I can say yes. I think we finally transition to the design of a Tdr. That, honestly speaking, was a conceptual design
Luca Grandi: to a complete and and final design down to, you know, single screws and all the interfaces.
Luca Grandi: So there are only 2 things that
Luca Grandi: are going to be ready, you know, in a couple of weeks, and they've been put.
Luca Grandi: let's say, after the the design review, A and B mostly to allow us to cross check things. So one is the inner reflector
Luca Grandi: cage, and the other is the inner vito reflectors. So the inner vito reflectors, as you guys might have seen. If you follow the design. Review A and B. They have, very, you know, very clear design. Already everything is presented. The the optical plane and the barrel have all the holes that are needed.
Luca Grandi: and we just are giving us a bit more time to do 2 things. So on the side of the Tpc, we just want to cross check that.
Luca Grandi: You know, with this final rush that we did for design. Review A and B. We did not overlook anything in terms of special shapes for the reflectors, although, honestly speaking, we expect to be doing some sort of tailoring of these very flimsy reflector foils
Luca Grandi: on the detector itself when it's mounted. So this is one thing. The other thing is that we know already how to connect the reflectors also on the internal phase of the vessel, but that has not been shown, nor in review A and review B. So that's the part of the inner vito
Luca Grandi: that should be completed for the internal reflector cage we have already a design, a baseline design, and we are still discussing a couple of points that are mostly related to the interplay between
Luca Grandi: very, very precise shape and how we will do installation. So this is another reason why we we decided to slightly postpone of a couple of weeks the release of the final design to the drawing of internal reflector cage with respect to the inner detail, but the internal reflector cage is contained. The 3D. Model of the reflector cage is contained in our Id model.
Luca Grandi: We have a 3D. Model and 2 MoD. And 2D. Model for all our documents, and you know
Luca Grandi: what is their state? Well, we define them advanced in the typical way in which engineer define drawing, so we think they are ready on our side. They are ready to go out to companies for several visas already happened for the case. For example, in the case of the optical plane, so there might be minor changes that are coming from feedback, from from companies. But on our side we are ready.
Luca Grandi: and to to call them final.
Luca Grandi: Slide 6 is a list of all components that whose design, whose mechanical design is considered a final. There is a note on the, you know, high voltage connection here.
Luca Grandi: Why? Well, because.
Luca Grandi: as you heard before, we complete our design, based on electrostatic simulation and also on early prototyping. But, as Emilia said, we also need to to get some feedback from the tests.
Luca Grandi: and those might lead to some modification. The addition of some grooves, for example, is something that we've been discussing, and and we are unsure at the moment, and we would like to do some extra, some extra tests.
Luca Grandi: and also the routing of a cable has been, let's say, broadly speaking, define as far as how the cable we route
Luca Grandi: from, for, for example, in the case of a high voltage
Luca Grandi: plug from below the Tpc. To up into into the corresponding fit through on the on the cryostat. We have added the holes for making all the anchoring design review. B contains also some ideas for how we could implement the the sort of rail that we would like to have below the
Luca Grandi: the Tpc. To accompany properly the cable during the shrinkage phase, when when temperature is cooled down. So we have ideas they are contained
Luca Grandi: in there, and all the interfaces have been frozen, and so all the holes have been put in. But still we haven't yet a 2D drawing for for those parts
Luca Grandi: slide 7. So what are so I I you were asking also to devote one or 2 slides to you know things that were
Luca Grandi: design that we consider not complete. So as you as you saw, and I think also, Paolo probably noticed this.
Luca Grandi: So the we have something that is called the formation monitor system that we would like to add to our system to allow us to measure the actual shape of the anode. It essentially consists of
Luca Grandi: thin quartz rod that passes through the top optical plane and sit on on the anode, and on the top of them we have sensors that can be used to determine the height of the sensor, and so of the quartz. With respect to.
Luca Grandi: you know, a straight wire that is installed on the top of the optical plane. So for all these.
Luca Grandi: we have foreseen everything. So we have all the connection for being able to put in position this wire, all the connection to allow insertion of the of the rods, and so on. But we still need to define more clearly what type of sensor we plan to put on the optical on sorry at the top of the rod.
Luca Grandi: So this is not ready. I think it's at the preliminary design review at the moment, and not final, so not advanced.
Luca Grandi: What is the impact with the rest of the component? There is no impact because all the interfaces have been already frozen. And again, we're speaking about interfaces with Anode, the Pmma block and top optical plane.
Luca Grandi: If you go on. B, sorry on 8. I meant sorry.
Luca Grandi: Okay, so what what is required to finalize. Well, what I was saying. I think we need to make some careful exercise where we take different type of sensor, and we figure out what would better fit
Luca Grandi: our needs in terms of determining, with the desired precision the shape of the anode
Luca Grandi: schedule for completion. We are giving us a few months till the end of the of the year. Opportunity to recover. Well, this is really not on the critical path, in a sense, is a nice auxiliary extra system that we are foreseeing. So, of course, having someone else helping and doing the test, helping, Bruce might help. But I think we have a higher priority topic where we might want to move resources.
Luca Grandi: So then we have. there are, are there a question on this 1st slide, or you want me to finish, and then you ask.
Francesco Forti: Let's continue. If there are questions, please. People, please. Awesome. Okay.
Luca Grandi: Okay. So we the more the detector designers become mature, the more we notice that, you know, we've been cutting down material here and there for good reason. At the same time we notice that we reached a situation in which, if we take no special attention or special control measurements.
Luca Grandi: and if we give for granted the estimate that are coming out from from budget estimate and buoyancy estimate, we might have the entire inner detector slightly buoyant
Luca Grandi: when the vessel is filled with with liquid carbon.
Luca Grandi: so these, of course, doesn't represent a big issue in the sense that the top of the rod are anchored to the top of the vessel, but but still there are good reason why you would prefer to have an Id inside the vessel that is slightly sinking.
Luca Grandi: so
Luca Grandi: the result of these likely sinking so that the buoyant force, the net force between gravity and buoyancy, is coming really from the difference between that 2 very large numbers that should be known accurately. And so we have an idea of how to create the to add extra weight. If you want to the system in a safe way.
Luca Grandi: without really affecting at all the design of the Id. But still granting us to be slightly sinking, and you know one idea is to add the discrete copper weights that are connected directly to the rod, the rod that foreseen at the bottom a section that can be used for this. Another solution that probably is the one I prefer is the idea of adding, instead of discrete copper weights, to add
Luca Grandi: a ring of of copper that, you know, if you do the calculation something of the order of 11 cm wide and 2.5 cm thick, that can be anchored to the 8 rods.
Luca Grandi: and that would allow a nice distribution of the of the load. And Grant and, you know, compensate for the net upward force.
Luca Grandi: So what are the delays caused by? Well, as I was saying, we we needed 1st to finalize, and making sure that our design had no flukes.
Luca Grandi: and I think we are almost there. Now. We we want to hear back from the panel that is reviewing design review B document.
Luca Grandi: and then we want to to try to get more accurate estimates in terms of you know, the the parameter that matters. So we want to measure more accurately the pmma shrinkage at liquid argon temperature. What we have is a good number that has been measured actually, and that has been used for making
Luca Grandi: and for scaling the geometry at cold, and not. But we are so like the the small net force upward is so small, but it's the result of very big numbers that are subtracted right? And so even a small change in one of these parameter can affect the big numbers and can bring the arrow from one direction to the other. And the second thing is that
Luca Grandi: one other reason why we would like to have a detector syncing is that at some point we are envisioning that the anode might be so deformed that we need to pull to pull it up
Luca Grandi: with a maximum force of 5.6. Kilonewton.
Luca Grandi: This is a very conservative estimator that Dave Rogoski did, after studying all the properties of of pmma and creeping. But again, we are foreseeing to to you know, dedicated the studies to to better understand creeping and nail down some of the numbers that they've used for the calculation. So essentially, these 2 numbers might
Luca Grandi: might change. Okay.
Francesco Forti: That's a that's a question.
Luca Grandi: Yeah.
Luca Latronico: Yeah. Hi, sorry I I was. Curious whether you
Luca Latronico: expect any contamination issue from these extra weights that you have to put to counterbalance the buoyancy.
Luca Grandi: Well, we've been discussing was discussing yesterday with the center. I'm not sure if he's there. So he's going to start putting some prelim preliminary concept for this
Luca Grandi: from the point of view of a neutron background, he's not concerned at all. What we need to better estimate is a gamma impact. Sorry the impact of the gamma background. But again, at the moment we don't have
Luca Grandi: we don't have a real, a concrete, quantitative answer. My feeling is that we are not so concerned. But and you know we can play a bit also with the location. We can try to lower it a bit more, for example.
Luca Grandi: in order to make the you know, these extra extra weight far from more far as, or as far as possible from the active volume, but a quantitative estimation will
Luca Grandi: will depend on the exact geometry, I think, and so we are still trying.
Francesco Forti: Why copper?
Luca Grandi: Well, we are trying. We need something that is not buoyant, and that is pure.
Luca Grandi: And and so we have been thinking about copper, but we will consider.
Francesco Forti: Why not the same stainless steel that is used for the.
Sandro De Cecco: Because it's less clean than
Sandro De Cecco: Imagine, indeed, that.
Luca Grandi: Call.
Sandro De Cecco: In the same distance to the detector. We will have about 13 tons of stainless steel that, of course, we would like to procure very pure, we'll see. So here we are talking about something of 600 kg of a metal that in the case of copper, electro format copper has basically 2 order of magnitude, radiopurity, better radiopurity than stainless steel. So basically.
Sandro De Cecco: back of the envelope calculation, it will add 0 or epsilon to our background, both in neutrons and in photons in the inner beta.
Francesco Forti: Okay.
Luca Grandi: Okay, so can you go to the next slide?
Luca Grandi: Okay, so impact of delay on our components.
Luca Grandi: Well, there is no real impact in the sense that we have foreseen as as declared and stated in design review way, we have foreseen a way of anchoring these extra weight to the rods and the rods feature. I've been extending more downward with respect to the initial plan and the feature, a threaded portion.
Luca Grandi: and you know the only other impact that this object can have is on the inner vito, and for this we will have to foresee additional reflectors. So again, these foils that are covering everything should cover also this surface. But
Luca Grandi: I don't expect that this is a serious impact on the schedule itself, and it doesn't play a major role nor art to meaningfully the work on the rest of the Iv
Luca Grandi: schedule for completion and opportunity. Well, this depends a bit. We need to decide. And and you know now that we have a finalized finalized inner detector, we need really to come up with a concrete plan, a concrete geometry.
Luca Grandi: At the moment. This item is not assigned to anybody, and so there should be a discussion of who can take, you know, the effort, in both in terms of, you know, procuring the material and machining and also designing
Luca Grandi: but we need to define better the specifications of these.
Luca Grandi: you know of the system before being able to to answer your question.
Luca Grandi: Slide 11
Luca Grandi: is on the last item that I already mentioned. This is the internal reflector cage that sits
Luca Grandi: inside the active volume, and that holds in position the the 3 M. Foils coated with with Tp
Luca Grandi: so what is causing the delay? Well, the responsibility was moved quite recently, you know already, I think,
Luca Grandi: from 9 to 6 months ago to to humans.
Luca Grandi: And so work has been happening and occurring, and you know the fact that we have a baseline design is a demonstration, but still, you know, the thing is not as complete as other parts, and this is why we, you know, we we need still to do a few minor rounds of feedback
Luca Grandi: on on the proposed design
Luca Grandi: impact of delay on our components. Essentially, there is no impact. We have foreseen to have this piece in place. It's in our 3D models. Interfaces with the
Luca Grandi: panels is present. We have foreseen this keyhole for connecting the thin pmma sheet to the barrel inside, and we have also foreseen a way of distributing the liquid argon that comes from outside through pipes which it penetrates through
Luca Grandi: the panel, and we want it to reach the active volume. So we have foreseen all that needs in in the design. So we don't expect, you know, a major delay on any other component.
Luca Grandi: Can you go to slide 12?
Luca Grandi: Yeah. So you know, work required to finalize the design as as I was mentioning. We are almost there. We want to reiterate on some aspect that are delicate in terms of their installation
Luca Grandi: plan so, and that, you know, just to
Luca Grandi: to follow one of the question of Francesco. It's true that the design is not complete of the tools, but the tools design is quite advanced, and and, as you can see, and we really consider it
Luca Grandi: in terms of its interface with with each part of the of the detector, and then opportunity to recover. Well, here, I think that if we were able to allocate some engineering support to the group of Andrea Parker. That would be good, because at the moment he's missing engineering support, and that would be a way of speeding up. For sure.
Luca Grandi: You know everything.
Sandro De Cecco: And this concludes question 1.1.
Francesco Forti: Okay, very good.
Francesco Forti: I will. I will keep going. We we are running it late. Let's let's go through all the issues.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah. So right now we have the question. So we already discussed the the the question, 1.2 with Amelia. So we go to 1.3. And here, the anode control system, Peter, you may
Sandro De Cecco: discuss it right.
peter: Sure. Yeah. So just that, I mean, we can skip this slide. Okay, if if we're in a very, if everybody knows what's there. Okay?
peter: And so
peter: I guess the status is that the design is essentially complete with with and with the interface to the the top.
peter: We can, you know, assume of well, pending final review. We can go out and and
peter: and send out drawings for manufacturing and get quotes by about March first.st I think, maybe even earlier.
peter: And there are 2 specialty machine shops in town that have done work for snow lab before. So they know how to do welding. Okay, and
peter: and stuff like this and vacuum systems.
peter: There's even a 3rd machine shop we can use
peter: on top of this whole thing. But it's not on the drawings here. And it's not really part of this review. There's a calibration club box and a motor box for deploying the sources down this hollow this tube?
peter: Those are exact copies of the 4 other ones that are used for the calibration system for dragging sources around the outside of the Tpc, so I'm not including anything here. It's
peter: a separate review, basically
peter: in terms of testing of the compound lever system. Right? We can do it here at queens using local resources and local technicians. So what we would do is we would set up a small test stand. You know, once we had the device. Okay, we put load cells on it.
peter: We put some some springs on it. Okay, to mimic the bellows, and we would try and test it on the various, you know. Configurations. Okay? And how much hysteresis in in the system. Okay, load upload down, etc, etc.
peter: And we can also vacuum. Test the various components. The tube itself, right has to be vacuum right
peter: the way all the sections. So we can do those tests here.
peter: I'm guessing that the once we put out the order, it'll be maybe well.
peter: 6 to 8 months. Okay for having the components. And and that
peter: includes a bit of time. Okay, in case we have to go and rework something on the Anode lever control system. Okay, like.
peter: And you know, some detail that is not quite right, or whatever
peter: the Acs is wasn't in the original budget. Okay, so
peter: we've gotten engineering support from Mcdonald Institute. And for engineering all this stuff. Okay? And that's been free.
peter: and we haven't paid for that.
peter: We don't. Actually, we did not have any money in the budget at Queens for building this thing, but we will reallocry and reallocate funds.
peter: and and see what we can do or building it in-house.
peter: There is technical support, as I said, in house for assembly and testing.
peter: And then these things are supported by mi, okay.
peter: that's all I'm going to say here, any questions.
Francesco Forti: I'm just lost. So when you said there are shops in town, you mean in Kingston, or you know, in the.
peter: Yeah, in the Kingston. Yes, yes, there are 2 shops in Kingston. Okay, that do special stainless steel.
peter: for you know.
peter: drug plants, you know food processing companies whatever. Okay, we've used them before for snow and for snow lab things. Okay, they're well aware of how to to make vacuum chambers, for example, okay? Or calibration tubes all sorts of other equipment. Okay, they're very good.
peter: and.
Sandro De Cecco: Okay.
Sandro De Cecco: So next one is Q, 1, 4. And actually, this has been replied by Luca in a slide 9 and 10. Okay, so this week. I think we discussed it.
Sandro De Cecco: Then we go to the coatings, and here I leave the floor to John from Carleton Group.
Sandro De Cecco: He's John.
John Sosiak: Thank you so much. Good after or good evening, I suppose.
John Sosiak: So I'll just go over some of the different, I suppose orientations and methodologies. We've used to spray the the acrylic parts as part of the mock up and as note all of our sprays are very scalable to to the larger version of things. So we essentially tested all of our sprays in the shadow of of scaling this up and doing things in that same same light.
John Sosiak: So here you can see a few different versions of spray orientations that were used for the barrel panels in the very middle of the image. There you can see our Ridge Protector, Spray Head. So this basically runs on the ridges of the channels and ensures that only the channel itself is sprayed, and there's no overspray on top of the ridges and connecting the channels together.
John Sosiak: You can see in the top right there a little bit hard to see, I guess, the the horizontal spray that was used to spray the feet. And there's various versions of sprays that happened in that orientation, such as the cone and then other positioning on other parts. So also detailing some, I guess, of the challenges we've run into in the bottom right hand corner. We basically use the mock up as a way to hone in our strategy for spraying.
John Sosiak: So, as you can see in the bottom right there, there's some dripping and things that have shown up on the during the horizontal spray. So this is basically an overly thick coating that went down. So we're researching better ways to really put down quality sprays, quality clevios, coatings, and maneuvering things in that manner.
John Sosiak: and go to the next slide, please.
John Sosiak: So for this one.
John Sosiak: just for the anode of the coatings that we completed there. These ones you can see some of the masking solutions for the Tpv. Coating as well. In the bottom left hand corner, the anode clavios masking that went down so essentially, all of our masking that happened we did in acrylic
John Sosiak: so these acrylic masks are going to be changed up for the larger scale, just the interfacing between the acrylic mask and the acrylic part itself kind of gave a good cushion. Between the 2, however, we we did find some issues with the Tpp coatings, basically finding larger outgassing rates than expected, based on the clevios, on the acrylic, and then the
John Sosiak: the increase of acrylic within the the vacuum vessels as well.
John Sosiak: So as well. You can see the Tbb. Source setup. The aspect ratio of the boat configurations. In that middle picture there are identical to scaling to the 20 K design. And this is based on a 10% uniformity of coatings.
John Sosiak: so that should scale up pretty well. We've done quite a few. We have quite a bit of experience through the deep. 3,600 vessel through Mark's experience in doing larger Tpp depositions. So we have a few other things to look at to really scale up and perfect our Tpp coating. But we're drawing off some some good experience there.
John Sosiak: The next slide, please.
John Sosiak: Here we can see the the cathode and ewall coatings that were completed on the mock up
John Sosiak: so various versions of the spray, I guess the very center smallest picture there you can see the the knee wall being sprayed. We have the the whole configuration leaned on its side. And we basically index the the cathode knee wall assembly 45 degrees at a time. After spraying
John Sosiak: to to coat each individual panel, and on the very far left, you can see, basically, the Klevios performance was a little bit drippy, I suppose, without a large flashing time. It still is quite maneuverable, and it does does drip down through the channels themselves.
John Sosiak: So I guess this is part of our lessons learned which we'll be showing in a couple of slides here from now. Just things that we can perfect throughout
John Sosiak: the the coding of the dark side 20 k version,
John Sosiak: things like the cone and the upper picture there. Yeah, these are things that that we're gonna
John Sosiak: look further into find better ways to to code. And yeah, you can go ahead to the next slide. There, Sandro.
John Sosiak: So for this one we have, I I guess some
John Sosiak: to the so I haven't seen yet. There's some issues within the the coatings themselves, or within the the kneeling of the parts themselves. So you can see up in the top there the
John Sosiak: basically, they weren't even across the the full scale of the the mock up so again, some small small issues within the coatings of of Klavios across the mock up so these are some things that we will have to be paying attention to when we're going to scale things up. So we have
John Sosiak: small things to to look at, like modifications to the spray head providing better flow control of the thickness so potentially looking at testing thinner coatings, doing multiple thin coatings to produce basically a thick coating. And that's basically provide us a better uniformity control. When we're going to spray the feet, the cone things of that nature.
John Sosiak: We're also providing a clevio spot repair process. So in some of the mock up coatings we, we ran into some issues where we had to recoat a portion of the the anode so, providing a methodology to go ahead to
John Sosiak: repair those spots, it's almost indefinitely going to happen on the large scale where someone will drop a wrench, or something will happen where? Where there's this need for a spot repair and this is something we're we're looking further into to provide a good fix for that.
John Sosiak: yeah. Other things, such as the Tpb depositions. we have to ensure that we have a good knowledge of the outgassing rates for final design things mentioned before, just with the the masking that's provided originally was outgassing with acrylic pieces were much longer than anticipated. So things that will affect the schedule and things that will have to go forward
John Sosiak: and do some test coatings within the evaporator system. To to really make sure that we know that things are going to be working well with the the large scale items.
John Sosiak: You can go to the next.
John Sosiak: So yeah, here's some of the versions of the the scaled up shown before the Cnc system that encapsulates the evaporator. You can see some of the parts installed within the evaporator. So everything again is going to be scaled up.
John Sosiak: The Cnc that we use. We're essentially using all the same motors and electronics and and increasing our the extrusion built or used to build the Cnc. So the linear rail system will be scaled and some of the motors will be used as well.
John Sosiak: So again, this evaporator will be used for for heating and annealing the parts as well.
John Sosiak: I can go to the next screen there.
John Sosiak: So the schedule itself. For 2025 q, 1 we're looking at
John Sosiak: modifying some of the the components within the spray system to really provide a uniform spray. We're designing that scale up with the Cnc really making sure that we're able to define the outgassing expectations. Q. 2. Evaporator heating and control system scaling. Tpv system. What else is important here
John Sosiak: and then actually constructing the Xy translation table. That's gonna be a big one for us to really knock out and ensure that everything does does work properly. There.
John Sosiak: Yeah, I think that's pretty much everything for me. There was my last slide. Sandra.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah, yeah.
John Sosiak: Any questions.
Francesco Forti: So on the logistics.
Francesco Forti: so Carleton is responsible for this for this activity, and we'll produce the tools and then bring the tools to Alberta and run the the coding in Alberta. Is that the way it works?
John Sosiak: Yeah, that's correct. We're we're planning on building and assembling things here at Carlton, but the actual spraying activities will happen at U of a.
Francesco Forti: And and you have the people ready to go there and stay there because it's far away. i i i'm always surprised by the distances in in Canada, and I think it's like 4,000, you know, kilometers away from from Carit. And so it's it's not an easy commute.
John Sosiak: No, yeah, I believe that's in place. We have a team of people that were are willing and able to fend off the winters of Edmonton. So.
Francesco Forti: Okay.
Francesco Forti: Okay. Thanks.
smithajs: Also in nonstop flights in Ottawa. Airport's very close to the town.
John Sosiak: That definitely helps out to Edmonton. Maybe not so much.
Francesco Forti: Okay. So maybe maybe you want to comment. Coding is listed as one of the critical items in the last slide or next to the last slide. So can you comment on this criticality of of the coating and
Francesco Forti: And how do we gain proof of mind.
Sandro De Cecco: Andrea, do you want to give the word on this slide?
Andrea Zani: Yes, but I mean, I I think what is written here in these lights summarizes what? What was said by by John, I mean for the mock up the the the results of the coatings
Andrea Zani: can be defined as not completely satisfactory, at least from
Andrea Zani: a visual inspection. This does not, as written here, does not give us any indication, yet
Andrea Zani: the effect on performance, and they were not completely reproducible. So the the critical item. The criticality here is that more development is is needed on the process and the Qaqc. To ensure producibility
Andrea Zani: and and and scaling it. Well, it's it's true that the what John said, that it's in principle, everything is completely scalable.
Andrea Zani: but then it has to be performed
Andrea Zani: the 1st time on on the scale of the Ds. 20 k pieces
Andrea Zani: Before this can be confirmed.
Francesco Forti: Yeah, it is clearly a risk. It has to enter the risk register and and I would say, you know, on the schedule part
Francesco Forti: doing tests on on a large scale. Prototype would be very important, and and it would be, you know, good to do it as soon as possible, and when when I look at your schedule let's see,
Francesco Forti: the full scale is in is in quarter 3, and so any any things that will surprise you in terms of what happens on a large prototype will only happen at the end of 2025,
Francesco Forti: and
Andrea Zani: Yes.
Francesco Forti: I'm wondering why. Why can't you accelerate this and and have some testing, you know? Try to get some full scale testing earlier.
smithajs: Yeah, I guess. My, let me follow up on that one. You say the evaporator has been ordered. When when is it expected to arrive because we can't do anything until the evaporator arrives. So it looks like a big specialized component.
Andrea Zani: Yeah. So there is a slide on this, if I remember correctly, supposed to arrive in the summer. I don't remember the month the issue if you want is that the evaporator takes part of the space in Alberta that is needed for the dry fit. So it cannot be. I mean, we can try to to find a workaround, but in principle it cannot be installed and operated easily
Andrea Zani: before the dry fit is done. For sure. This is I mean, this is a mitigation strategy that we should we should follow. Try to see if we manage to parallelize this.
Andrea Zani: But as you saw from from the slides from Axel.
Andrea Zani: It's not going to be straightforward.
smithajs: Yeah, you're really digging with dealing with big objects. Right?
Andrea Zani: Yes.
Sandro De Cecco: But probably in after the John talk. Let me also add something here, because Carloton Group did a tremendous effort in the last couple of months.
Andrea Zani: Yeah.
Sandro De Cecco: And and we learned that I think all the collaboration learned a lot, even if at distance, by receiving the part of serving and following very closely. Basically, we could say, John day by day, also, during the Christmas break.
Sandro De Cecco: okay? And I think that all with all these dose of information that is received now in the group and the collaboration. I believe that the process we R&D and the process finalization for the scaling to large surfaces is receiving a lot of data. Okay, that has to be in part yet to be met up.
Sandro De Cecco: digested the butter, and of course we should planify intermediate test before going to larger scale with the evaporator.
Sandro De Cecco: But I really want to thank the Carleton group because it allowed basically to keep more or less the schedule of the Moocap.
Sandro De Cecco: and successfully quote these acrylic parts.
Francesco Forti: Sandra, let me let me see, we'll continue, but when I, when I hear, keep the schedule of the mock up, I cannot. You know, the mock up has been delayed by so much that keeping which schedule is difficult. But I understand your point, and I and I think it's very important that the Carlaton group is is fully engaged. And
Francesco Forti: and contributing so much.
Francesco Forti: Okay, shall we continue.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah. So we go back. So why don't we go directly to the mock up? Since.
Francesco Forti: Yeah. Maybe a mock up is is interesting to hear.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah, if you agree. So how come, Bianca? You are there.
Ako Jamil: Door. We are here. Can you hear us.
Sandro De Cecco: Yes.
Ako Jamil: Okay. So, as you can see, we are currently assembling
Ako Jamil: like 24 h per day. And
Ako Jamil: to try to answer the question of which lessons we learn. We think that
Ako Jamil: the mock up there has been so far very useful.
Ako Jamil: So we learned a lot of thing about the machining of the acrylic. Or maybe I should say that we confirmed, since the Alberta group was already expert on this but we have experienced that the machining and the surface finish of the parts to make them ready for the previous coating is a delicate job.
Ako Jamil: Then the dry fit exercise that we have been doing in July in Alberta was
Ako Jamil: extremely useful for a number of reasons. So 1st of all, to learn how to actually deal with the pieces even if they are much smaller the geometry is still the same scales down. So these pieces are
Ako Jamil: of a weird shape, so make them aligned is not easy. And we also improved. Well, we developed and then improved the procedure to align them. We learned to use this super fancy scanner and also we are improving the the tools to actually tune. Fine tune the position of the of the panels
Ako Jamil: then, as already said, by John and the others doing the coatings for the mock up
Ako Jamil: was useful. We learned quite some things, both about the
Ako Jamil: let's say, coating bigger pieces than the previous tests and also regarding the baking and annealing cycles, which, need to be extremely well under control. Because we experienced, as John has shown, the formation of 2 panels which, even if it's small
Ako Jamil: it's still critical to then get the proper alignments to 100 microns
Ako Jamil: then we are actually integrating many, many pieces. So we confirmed again the importance of the cross check and the integration of all the tolerances. And this is a work that the inner detector group has done. With a very big effort. And this can be seen in the review documents
Ako Jamil: and we are also learning and improving our clean room protocols, our cleaning protocols, our storage protocols, and we are training ourselves and other people to to do this, and then unfortunately for us. But maybe this can turn out to be useful for tax at 20 k. We are experiencing
Ako Jamil: a lot of interesting issues with the shipments and the customs. So, as Andrea mentioned before, this also will will turn out to be useful for dark side.
Ako Jamil: I think you can go to the next slide, Sandra. Thanks.
Ako Jamil: So this is just a bunch of pictures of the installation. So you can see in the 1st one the
Ako Jamil: screws to fix the resistor chain to the rings of the barrel panels, the handle that we use to move the pieces without touching the clavia surface. Then there is the table that we use to align the panel. Then the following picture shows the installation of the camera that we will use to check the status inside the optical plane with
Ako Jamil: the dummy mechanical pdus then on the bottom row we are installing. Actually the resistor link inside the barrel. Then again, Barrent pieces. Then there is the grid, which is almost done. And then the camera again. And okay, people at work
Ako Jamil: next slide, please.
Ako Jamil: Okay. So concerning also the current status
Ako Jamil: we are at the moment aligning in Cr 2 the barrel panel, which is fully assembled at in the background of our camera over there. And you probably have seen us going back and forth finalizing the alignment of the last panels within 100 microns
Ako Jamil: and we said, are following and improving the procedure developed during the dry fit in Alberta next.
Ako Jamil: then the I'm sorry the wire grid installation is almost done. So more than 2 thirds of the wires are inserted. We are about to finish. We are waiting for some new wires since some of them were a little bit deformed
Ako Jamil: and we already tested the grid at a high voltage. So with a ground plane next to it, so we didn't see any, and we we did it. Of course, here in Cr 2 we didn't see any issue. So this is also a good test. And in the bottom, right corner you can see also a scan that we did with the maximum resolution of the scanner to actually see the
Ako Jamil: alignment of the pins inside the frame to check our installation.
Ako Jamil: Then we have installed a couple of resistor links, not all of them, because we wanna 1st finalize the alignment of the barrel and make it fully tighten and rigid with the corner brackets, and only afterwards go ahead with the resistor chains. But we attached a couple both to test and also to monitor the resistivity behavior of the Klavio strings, which is monitor, and it's
Ako Jamil: currently plotted in the in the picture to see how the exposure to air and to light may degradate. And if these I mean, if our measurements are consistent with the test done at Carton, and it seems so.
Ako Jamil: and next slide.
Ako Jamil: Yes. So basically, we plan to
Ako Jamil: work very hard, as we are really doing in the past
Ako Jamil: weeks and months and go ahead in the following. So we are currently received here. Both the anode and the cathode and all the barrel the
Ako Jamil: cathode cable. High voltage cable is on its way, so it should arrive by the end of next week, and this will be the the last part that we are still missing here.
Ako Jamil: So the plan is to actually go ahead, tighten completely the barrel, install the resistor chains and the click connection, put the grid on it, put the anode, and then put everything on the new wall and do the final, the final assembly of the temperature sensors and all the the things are missing, and then just move underground.
Ako Jamil: which we hope we will be able to do by mid of February, and I think that's all.
smithajs: I have a question in in our June meeting.
smithajs: The schedule you showed had you
smithajs: testing in liquid Argon in mid December.
smithajs: So now it's already the end of January. And so
smithajs: how come it took so much longer.
Ako Jamil: So there were 2 different kind of issues that we faced. One was regarding the machining that took much more than expected. Especially the
Ako Jamil: tiny little features and the surface finish that
Ako Jamil: require the very careful sending of the parts.
Ako Jamil: So this took more more time than expected, but still it was almost, let's say, on time by by July, because when we were in July in Alberta the machining was almost ready, but not completely. And then, as John mentioned, we we experienced the
Ako Jamil: some issues with the coatings. So we had to redo the coatings a couple of times on some panels
Ako Jamil: and we also had to redo the annealing, which is a quite time consuming operation on on other panels. And also there were some let's say, ish small issues with the Tpv deposition, so that the the evaporator was not behaving perfectly.
Ako Jamil: And so that's why we? We are now here. So
Ako Jamil: yes, that's true. We are late.
smithajs: Just really concerned that that when I extrapolate this schedule into the one for the main Tpc.
smithajs: it's just it's just that a lot of things.
smithajs: A lot of stuff happens, and the schedule that we hear for the main Tpc is really quite success oriented. So I just don't know how to put that together.
Jocelyn Monroe: If I may interject on this point.
Jocelyn Monroe: the mock-up exercise is extremely important for us.
smithajs: Not saying it isn't. It's only it just is amazing, even this late in the game that the schedule slips so much.
Jocelyn Monroe: May I finish a sentence? So what I was going to say is, the mockup exercise is extremely important for us as a learning exercise for every group
Jocelyn Monroe: in delivering their components
Jocelyn Monroe: and delivering their components to the specification that we require. So we had a very serious discussion. Should we
Jocelyn Monroe: try to meet the original schedule, or should we take the time to get the coatings right?
Jocelyn Monroe: And we took a conscious and considered decision that you know one of the key goals of the mock-up exercise was to learn what we could
Jocelyn Monroe: as much as we could about what it's going to take to deliver coatings both of Tpb. And of Klavios that meet our specifications.
smithajs: Well, that's obviously.
Jocelyn Monroe: So you know, we we have to do that, and I think you know your comments about needing to exercise the large scale evaporator in advance are well found, but I think you know for us the mock up exercise is extremely important in making the schedule for the full scale Tpc integration more realistic.
smithajs: So we're not late, because the team of people that you see working in front of you in the clean room aren't working hard enough.
Jocelyn Monroe: We encountered issues.
smithajs: Okay.
Jocelyn Monroe: And we chose to take the time to address them and understand them.
smithajs: You know, it's just that there's
smithajs: you're just a consistent underestimation of the issues. And I just wonder if if all are all the worms out of the can.
smithajs: This is my concern. I'm sure you found an awful lot. I couldn't agree more that the mock-up has been incredibly constructive, but but it. It also shows that things are really difficult.
Sandro De Cecco: May I comment? Stu.
Sandro De Cecco: yeah. I mean, you are right. I think we think the same. Of course we are not happy of the delays that we we experienced. Let's probably put all this information together. There is a bunch of new information here, I mean, in the same day we are showing you the mock up that is basically now almost complete
Sandro De Cecco: and ready to go in cryogenics.
Sandro De Cecco: We have a design of the inner detector which is at would say, 90% complete.
Sandro De Cecco: and allowing the timeline of the reviewers and having the report and question, etcetera, if things are, as we think, under control.
Sandro De Cecco: will allow us to order and to be in time with what we foreseen already last summer for the large acrylic part ordering and machining. Okay? So the collaboration moved a lot in the last months. Okay, to converge on this. So I think that indeed the schedule may have changed it has. It has changed in last year. Now things are starting to be
Sandro De Cecco: little by little fixing. You know, we received the 1st large part of the dark side Tpc.
Sandro De Cecco: Which are already under preparation and production. In Rpt.
Sandro De Cecco: We received them in the summer, and indeed, then our next big step now will be to
Sandro De Cecco: schedule the review of all the parts and infrastructure very carefully, as we already commented, and you correctly spotted before now we have to do a careful plan and very detailed plan of what we really need 1st and schedule, and, you know, stagger the review of the single parts that we need in order to use
Sandro De Cecco: the best at the best our time as soon as the 1st large part of acrylic arrives in Canada. So, indeed, I think we we have February 13 to have also a more detailed and zoom and focused discussion on the overall schedule.
smithajs: Yeah, absolutely.
Francesco Forti: Yeah, I think that we cannot elaborate much on on this today. But certainly Stu's comment is, you know, very much to the point, and I think this will be an object of further discussion and investigation both that you know in in this
Francesco Forti: early review part and in the in the April Review. I think that, understanding what you have learned, and how that is incorporated in your full schedule, and how
Francesco Forti: this makes it schedule credible.
Francesco Forti: or more credible than in the past. I think it will be an important point of discussion.
Francesco Forti: On the mock up. So I I remember that there were constraints from the laboratory to put the mock up underground, and those constraints has been moved already a couple of times, and I'm sure Etsio is not happy about this delay. But what is the situation? There.
Andrea Zani: Well, we we have been in in close contact with HO. And the coordination team during the last few months, meaning that. It's required asks us of updates on on the schedule regularly every 2 or 3 weeks
Andrea Zani: So we've been also discussing internally how much we can
Andrea Zani: allow ourselves to to continue pushing with the lab. But I can say that the discussion, the agreement with the lab is so far, is fine. For example, we had agreed to to complete the activities before Christmas, I mean before Christmas. We had agreed to complete the activities by early April.
Andrea Zani: and this would fit with the schedule of the lab for the vaccine dismantling. Recently we have asked for 2, 3 more weeks to finish by by the end of April and
Andrea Zani: and Ezio was positive, because their schedule has also slipped slightly. They
Andrea Zani: even if there was a slippage of this deadline, it remains true that the lab.
Andrea Zani: I mean will tell us when
Andrea Zani: when we have to dismantle. In any case, I mean, we don't want to drag this the entirety of 2025. But in any case the lab won't allow us to to move forward indefinitely, but it's in our interest to complete this exercise and gain as much information as we need, because, as said already by many people
Andrea Zani: already, what we learned so far is, is a lot of information that will help us define the schedule, and but also the procedures for Docsite 20 k.
Francesco Forti: Okay.
Francesco Forti: okay, so we are clearly running late. We still have to cover. The other in the detective components
Francesco Forti: are people on the committee still alive. But can we stay for another 1520 min and and cover that?
Francesco Forti: Andrea.
smithajs: For me. It's only 3 o'clock. Easy for me.
Andrea Longhin: Yes, yes, it's fine.
Francesco Forti: Okay, so let's take another. Let's try to to take another, you know, 1520 min and cover the other points.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah. So we let the things here question 1.6. But this one actually, during the discussion we had we already essentially mentioned. So.
Francesco Forti: Yeah, this is covered, mostly, mostly, yeah.
Sandro De Cecco: Covered already, so go quick here on the procurement and machining of Tpc. It was also covered, but probably Graham. I would like to say one word on this, since he's following a part of this procurement.
Sandro De Cecco: sure.
Graham Giovanetti: Yeah. So there are currently 2 contracts in place with Rpt. It's sort of divided between
Graham Giovanetti: the acrylic panels that are going to make up the the anode cathode and knee wall, and a second contract that covers the bricks, and then the barrel walls. So the contract that covers the barrel walls also includes machining
Graham Giovanetti: of those panels into the final parts. And that's going to be done at a subcontractor actually in Kansas City, and
Graham Giovanetti: the machining of the anode cathode that's under the scope of Alberta.
Graham Giovanetti: So they're currently working with Arbitee to define that contract and we'll
Graham Giovanetti: complete it once the final design is approved.
Graham Giovanetti: I don't see an email.
Graham Giovanetti: Tennis is underway.
smithajs: There's a kneeling also in there.
Graham Giovanetti: That's correct. Yep, yeah. So this includes casting.
Graham Giovanetti: bonding of panels, annealing of panels, machining of panels, re-annealing of panels.
smithajs: Alright. Thank you.
Graham Giovanetti: Yep.
Sandro De Cecco: Good, if there are no question, we go ahead, Francesco, you you stop the flow. If you have a question.
Francesco Forti: Let's stop. If we have questions, you go ahead.
Sandro De Cecco: Robert or Vicente. You are here, the leader of the material working group.
Vicente Pesudo: Yeah. So how do we ensure readi purity of the Tpc components? It was written, but not mentioned before. Then, during the production of of the panels at Rpt Asia. There was Chris Jellings from Snow Lab actually there, monitoring that the production
Vicente Pesudo: followed the the expected procedure, and making sure that the the cleaning on the infrastructure was done in a suitable manner, and everything was successful in that sense. And in a more general.
Vicente Pesudo: yeah, so more more generally.
Vicente Pesudo: the collaboration is fully aware that all the past, all the parts, must be screened, and we, as materials working group, have a comprehensive list of items to be screened and we interact with the inner detector group in order to understand the procurement dates so that we assign
Vicente Pesudo: the screening facilities. So we book the screening facilities so that the waiting time is is minimized in that sense, and we have enough facilities to perform the screenings in a timely manner and to avoid the delays in fabrication.
Vicente Pesudo: So this strategy is saying, this samples 1st to identify potential good suppliers, and then here I'm talking in general for small components and everything other than the acrylic that is well advanced.
Vicente Pesudo: then interact with suppliers in order to clarify our needs, specifically addressing radio purity, and then for large elements, visit factory during production, as we did for the Tpc.
Vicente Pesudo: Ensure a suitable bagging and transportation protocol, assaying a part or a blank of the produced sample, so of the final product to validate that it fulfills our specification and ensure that manipulation and assembly is done paying special attention to minimize exposure and surface contamination.
Vicente Pesudo: So all these emphasizes different techniques that we have been using and that we still use and will do in the coming years until completion, that is, mass spectrometry, Germanium, counting polonium to 10 radiochemical extraction. Xia surface assays dust particulate, count, and
Vicente Pesudo: on on both air and on on the surfaces of materials.
Vicente Pesudo: So I don't know if this answers the question, or more detail is requested in any of this.
Sandro De Cecco: It's all good
Sandro De Cecco: question on this. We can go ahead. In any case. I think you know pretty well the organization of the material working group of the collaboration and all the tools that they put in place in order to have all the material screen and the.
Francesco Forti: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Now. The point is that we are getting to the point, to to the time when you have the contracts assigned with the suppliers. So this comes to fruition. But I I think the plan is there.
smithajs: Actually i 1 quick comment
smithajs: you're huge. It's a major procurement. This acrylic is a make or break. They cannot screw up in any way, or you're dead.
smithajs: Do you have people who visit that factory and see that they're making sure they're doing the right job.
Sandro De Cecco: We just mentioned it.
Sandro De Cecco: Peace.
Vicente Pesudo: Yeah, yeah, no. This is what I mentioned at the beginning, while we're transitioning slides, that during the production of our panels Chris Jellings was there.
Vicente Pesudo: and he monitored that everything was done, and he was very satisfied with the result. He also wrote an internal report with all his findings and.
Sandro De Cecco: Indeed.
smithajs: Well, if I were you, I would I would drop by occasionally, because
smithajs: you you never know these guys may get some other contract, or they do. So you
smithajs: just want to make sure that anyway, I just speak from experience. It's it
smithajs: it can't you? Just a comment.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah, was the same user for producer and site of production. And it was very, very clear that the same, let's say, procedure to guarantee purity of the acrylic matrix has to be used, as was the case for deep.
smithajs: All right.
smithajs: Enough.
smithajs: Sorry.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah, but it's important. Of course, we we we use here the expertise of the Canadian groups, indeed, and the contacts in the Rpt Company.
Sandro De Cecco: So if you don't mind, we can go to the second part, which will be probably few minutes, so we can summarize it right? So the vessel Gemma now is taking over on the vessel, as our main, let's say, rupees, or responsible for providing Gemma is not us.
Gemma Testera: Don't know if Marco is willing to comment this slide. If not, I can do
Marco Carlini: Please, Gemma, please go on.
Gemma Testera: Okay.
Marco Carlini: If you want.
Gemma Testera: So we had. You can comment eventually if I'm saying something strange.
Gemma Testera: So we had our internal review in that was completed in May 2024.
Gemma Testera: And after this we started with a document that was prepared for the review to contact in an informal way a few companies to have an updated quotation, and to understand if all the details of our drawing were really feasible.
Gemma Testera: and in parallel also happened that one of the reviewer that we have selected has now become a member of the collaboration is Fabritz Rafael, from Pisa.
Gemma Testera: So, together with him, and through interaction with the company, we we are now completely finalizing the drawing, and we have included a few simplification and a few solution that were still pending. So in particular, we have now a solution which is feasible for welding
Gemma Testera: the final, the top dome to the rest of the of the cylinder of the vessel when the detector is already mounted inside.
Gemma Testera: So we were discussing in the past, if doing, welding, or sealing with, or in
Gemma Testera: searing, sealing. And now we have a solution that tatica solution for doing the welding.
Gemma Testera: and we also simplified the entire construction of a vessel, using in the lateral walls material with a uniform thickness. Instead of the original drawing in which the design was included.
Gemma Testera: and also we added a few centering rings to easy the installation, because I remember that the vessel will be built at the company site in 6 pieces, and they will arrive as 6 separate pieces in Gran Sasso, because the entire vessel does not fit the walls of Gran Sasso.
Gemma Testera: so we will have 4 rings that you see here in the drawing and the 2 domes, so they will be constructed and cleaned at the company site. But then the final welding and assembly should happen in Olc.
Gemma Testera: So if you go to the next slide
Gemma Testera: by interacting with the companies, we also realized that for them is very difficult to procure the material with our requirement about radio purity. So we decided to separate the procurement into different contracts. One is the big tender for the construction of the vessel, and another one is a contract for buying the material.
Gemma Testera: So we need the plates
Gemma Testera: for building the top dome, top bottom dome and the lateral walls, and the forged pieces for for the flanges, and we are very advanced in the procurement of a main part of the material because we have identified the vendor of stainless steel
Gemma Testera: that is allowing us to sample to radio, say, a sample of the actual plates that will be procured by us, and eventually to refuse them if they do not meet our specification. This is for free. We only pay for the sample, and we can iterate this procedure a few times until we find the one with radio pourity that is meeting our specification.
Gemma Testera: So the procurement of the 1st batch of trials
Gemma Testera: plates is already ongoing, because this vendor has ordered the pieces, we should receive samples in a short time, and so we will start
Gemma Testera: this process.
Gemma Testera: We are. We are establishing contact with the vendors to do the same with the forged pieces, because unlikely, we can we? We cannot buy from the same vendor, because there is not treating this, the forged pieces
Gemma Testera: about the tender for reconstruction. So we go in parallel to this process, and we are finalizing all the document for all the documents for the tender.
Gemma Testera: So we are very advanced for the part of the mechanical drawing, and we are defining the details of what will happen in all C. Because, as I said, the final assembly should happen in all C. So we have to be sure that we do the soldering.
Gemma Testera: keeping the vessel clean, and that there are procedure for eventually re-clean, when, if necessary.
Gemma Testera: procedure that are satisfying for us for our specification, but also that can be implemented in all C in the underground lab. But and we know that there are
Gemma Testera: constraints about the type of operation that we can do the type of material that we can bring inside. So. But we are coming close to to a solution also. For this
Gemma Testera: I would like to have the tender approved in the coming months
Gemma Testera: with the 1st procedure, which is a decision of infn management, what is called the libera de junta, because when we have a visa when we can go
Gemma Testera: rather fast.
Gemma Testera: So I. The construction time is estimated, the maximum one year
Gemma Testera: from the time in which we sign the contract. So we are on time, we still have some margin if we check our schedule, but of course we have to
Gemma Testera: to work in order to not to lose this. This margin.
Sandro De Cecco: Questions on the vessel.
Francesco Forti: It's right.
Francesco Forti: Can you comment on the cost of this contract?
Gemma Testera: Yes, the preliminary quotation that we got from from the company.
Gemma Testera: at least, for most of the company
Gemma Testera: are higher than expected by order factor 2.
Gemma Testera: And because we are talking about the cost in the scale of 1 million euro, a factor 2 is significant.
Gemma Testera: The okay. Recently.
Gemma Testera: we had some better news. So with the company that made the preliminary quotation more aligned with what we are expecting.
Gemma Testera: so we'll see how the tender will will develop.
Gemma Testera: Of course we are doing our best also again recontacting the company to understand why
Gemma Testera: their cost is so high, and our strategy is to do from our side as much as work as possible, so give to the company the executive design in order to limit
Gemma Testera: their activity just to the construction, and see
Gemma Testera: how much visa can reduce to the cost.
Francesco Forti: Okay. Thanks.
Sandro De Cecco: And on the last, if there are no other.
Paolo Lombardi: Yeah, maybe. May I ask a question to Jemma?
Francesco Forti: Go ahead! Paulo.
Paolo Lombardi: So
Paolo Lombardi: The last welding of the top lid
Paolo Lombardi: will be done with the detector already installed inside with the PC.
Paolo Lombardi: Don't you expect any possible
Paolo Lombardi: effect in the cleanness or in a maybe some
Paolo Lombardi: pick up of sparks. Let's say that could affect the videos.
Sandro De Cecco: Marco, you would like to comment on this technique that
Sandro De Cecco: it now thought for the last lead. The field.
Marco Carlini: Yeah, essentially, there is these 2 very thin lips which are which you can see in the no, in the, in the left picture bottom left picture, and the welding is done outside the design is is thought to minimize the possibility of of let's say, of
Marco Carlini: contamination of the inner detector.
Paolo Lombardi: Yeah, I see.
Sandro De Cecco: Should we try to finish with the last couple of slides on the neutron shield?
Sandro De Cecco: Robert, do you want to comment the design? This design of the neutron shield with the all the metallic structure, and the fea calculation was already presented to your review committee in June.
Sandro De Cecco: Now the news are about the quotation. And, Robert, do you wanna take over from here.
Roberto Santorelli: Yeah, just to mention that we have a 1st offer, although some details have to be tuned. But we have a more realistic quotation for the material. The it's actually a little bit I mean higher than what we were expected that we're budgeting like 50,000. It's a kind of 95,
Roberto Santorelli: but it's not dramatic. So the idea is to buy this polyethylin, this company here in Spain, and to cut in pieces that will be machined here at Cmr. The machine shop. We can rely on this company. Actually, it's very relaxed story
Roberto Santorelli: this company already built the polyadine shield for the Rdm. Experiment in
Roberto Santorelli: confront, which has a very good connector with the machine shop of Cmouth.
Roberto Santorelli: So yeah, I mean, there is a little bit fine tuning that we have to do. We'll have in the next days a meeting with this company define the details. Anyway. I mean, we can rely on this company
Roberto Santorelli: and the the estimated time for the production of, or the order of 6 months is I mean from after placing the order
Roberto Santorelli: in 6 months in principle, we can have the the parts at Lngs for mounting the ship.
Sandro De Cecco: Which is, which will be too early. So yeah, it's not the critical path.
smithajs: Are there any cleanliness issues.
Roberto Santorelli: Say it again.
Sandro De Cecco: I mean you'll get.
smithajs: You. You've got it. You're doing it in your machine shop and sewing all this, are there? What are the what, if any, are the cleanliness issues in this. With this
smithajs: object.
Sandro De Cecco: Remember.
Roberto Santorelli: I mean, it is outside. So it's not very critical. You mean the surface contamination.
smithajs: No radioactivity.
Roberto Santorelli: Yeah, we will measure it. Yes, I mean, we already measure the 1st sample. It is more or less okay, obviously, for neutrons. It's neutral shield. So it shouldn't be an issue. We have to go through a little bit the
Roberto Santorelli: the gamma TV, but we already measure it. I don't have the number now, but this has been assemble has been measured
Roberto Santorelli: months ago, and it is okay. I mean, it is it is very clear
Roberto Santorelli: we can interact with the company. I mean, that's always the same. Once we have the order place, we have a good interaction with the company, so we can select the material. So we will not say the material that we are actually going to use it for building shoe.
smithajs: Okay. Thanks.
Francesco Forti: And also to to clarify. So you're saying that the design is complete and final. What you're just missing is the manufacturing goings. Is that what I did I understand.
Sandro De Cecco: Well on on the design. And my comment, this was finalized. Yes, now it could be improved a bit, you you see. It could be improved a bit, to find a way to cover a little bit more on the top lead of the of the vessel.
Sandro De Cecco: But the idea is that the material is optimized in terms of additional stainless steel, and the thickness has been studied. And you know we presented those studies to you several times with the physics simulation.
Sandro De Cecco: and now it can be improved. But I must say, this is certainly not our critical path. Okay, remember that this has to be installed when all the detector is closed inside the vessel inside the cryosta. So.
Sandro De Cecco: and it's thought to be installed easily. These parts are all very light and can be manipulated by one person, by 2.
Francesco Forti: No, no, I'm not saying it's not a critical path, but I would like to, you know, clarify the language. If the design is final. It cannot be improved because it's final.
Sandro De Cecco: It is advanced design.
Francesco Forti: To me.
Sandro De Cecco: That may be produced and given to a company, but we have contingently to choose, if we may afford some change. In any case, the important thing is that on this design the outer veto is based on this design. Now to attach on this Hdp panels, so the design, at least this interface would remain fixed. The only thing that we may add is something.
Sandro De Cecco: some additional coverage on the top gap. We didn't do this optimization yet we may do that in the next months.
Francesco Forti: Okay.
Sandro De Cecco: And actually, indeed, there was this slide. But I think Roberto read Roberto and Gem already answered to you about the radio purity of both the steel.
Francesco Forti: Yeah, there was Covid.
Gemma Testera: So this.
Sandro De Cecco: I think we pick up everything.
Sandro De Cecco: I think I think so.
Andrea Zani: Yes.
Francesco Forti: Yeah.
Francesco Forti: yeah, okay, okay, very good. Any further questions.
Francesco Forti: Okay, I.
Francesco Forti: If we if something comes to mind, we'll, we'll interact over email and thanks a lot for preparing this material. I think there's been a lot of progress
Francesco Forti: and
Francesco Forti: and I think that you are now in in full swing for preparing for the for the Nsf. Review, and which is a very important review, since that will.
Francesco Forti: you know, determining the future of the Nsf. Funds, and which are a crucial element of the project.
Francesco Forti: And so it's important that I think one of the things that I can, you know very briefly summarize is that it's important that you present things in such a way that your schedule is credible, and you know your technical risks are well identified, and mechanisms are in place to cope with the risks.
Francesco Forti: I think that's if if the Nsf. Gets this message, and then I think it will be able to move forward and approve the project. If if there is a sense that instead, there are still risks that are not understood.
Francesco Forti: that may indeed become a major problem of this review. So I would try to make sure that you identify that all the risks that you have in the project are well identified and and dealt with.
Francesco Forti: It's.
Luca Grandi: And, Jessica, what is your take like? Do you have already some aspect that you you would call as
Luca Grandi: to your right.
Francesco Forti: You identified 2 major risks, you have it in the slides, the high voltage distribution, and the quoting. These are major risks. I must say that I was not, you know, convinced by the tool production schedule at Alberta and all the assembly procedure of the Tpc. I would like to look at that in more detail. But maybe that's under control. This was a very quick thing. But
Francesco Forti: my take is that, you know, building the tool, all that those complex and large tools between May and and I don't know. The fall may be very challenging. And so that that's more schedule risk than a technical risk, whereas the high voltage and and the coating are really technical risks. If that fails, then then your your detector is not working as expected.
Francesco Forti: And so again. I I mean you you you cannot and and then the other comment, you know.
Francesco Forti: Jocelyn, coming back to the relationship between the mock-up and and the full assembly. It is true that the mock-up has taught the collaboration a lot, and it's been very important in defining the procedure and understanding what the difficulties are the mock-up. Is this big?
Francesco Forti: And the detector is this big?
Francesco Forti: So the mock up is.
Ako Jamil: Bigger than that.
Francesco Forti: Yeah, exactly.
Francesco Forti: So I, yeah, there's no doubt that the going from, even if you learned a lot from the markup, you have not learned everything. And so there will be other things coming up. And you know, if if we had to extrapolate.
Francesco Forti: given the fact that you didn't take into account enough contingency in the markup, and you ended up having, I don't know, one year delay in the markup. Now you extrapolate that into the big construction
Francesco Forti: you should really make all efforts to convince us and the other committees that now you're really taking into account all contingencies. Sorry, and this is not easy.
smithajs: I I would find it hard to believe there aren't going to be further delays. That's not saying anything bad. It's just when I look at all that Axel has to do just to name one victim it. It's just mind boggling. And and I think
smithajs: before the review is much better to put that in to your schedule before the reviewers attack a schedule that you can't really prove is conservative. So I just think you'll get more credibility. If you, if you, if you, if the thing is more developed and you have, you have some contingency in it.
Sandro De Cecco: But.
smithajs: That's your call.
Sandro De Cecco: I think I think you are right. I also agree. I think we we already are discussing this with the in the collaboration. Okay, in the project construction direction. And clearly, we have to include
Sandro De Cecco: the activities that not only playing contingencies, but things that now we know we will need. Okay in the We-, we quoted the some of them today in the presentation. And we need to do this work. And eventually, in any case, a preliminary estimation of this for the Nsf review. Yeah, yeah.
smithajs: Very good. Yes.
Sandro De Cecco: Yes.
Francesco Forti: All right. Very good.
Francesco Forti: So thanks a lot to everybody and so we have our next appointment on on February 13th for some sort of rehearsal.
smithajs: I'm not sure I don't know for other people it really would seem to be important that you show us what we can help with. I mean, I don't think we want to see the whole thing. But there, some of the issues that came up today, I think, what if you what what you, what you can do in the next couple of weeks on those, and and show us that there's been some some improvements, better knowledge that would really be helpful for us, and we can help you.
Francesco Forti: Right right, and I think the plan for that, for that rehearsal is clearly not to go through the entire material. I think that. Your plan is to have the full presentations ready by that day. So I think that that's a very good plan. At least that's what I understood. So we can take a look at the presentations. We will probably select a few points which you know come from the critical point of today to go presentations. And
Francesco Forti: certainly we will want to discuss about schedule which we didn't really cover today. You know the full schedule. So that's certainly 1 point and and maybe some of these other critical items that we just discussed. We can just have a look at them. But we we are not planning to go through the full. You know, presentation material which we wouldn't have enough time to do.
Sandro De Cecco: Yeah, also, because I think container detector today, you were exposed to a lot of material that you have also in a written form. So I think that.
Francesco Forti: He's about there.
Sandro De Cecco: Blast, think, I would say, but we can iterate the discussion, but I think it will be very useful
Sandro De Cecco: for us, I think, to have your point of view in the way we address
Sandro De Cecco: the scheduling thing toward the Nsf Review. Of course, I think we will benefit a lot of your suggestions and inputs. We'll work it out from now to the 13.th Try to also understand
Sandro De Cecco: what are the consolidation of the schedule
Sandro De Cecco: the in the last year. Let's say now we we are more certain, and some uncertainties are shrinking. Okay, not all of them, but some are. And we should, I think, build on this and on the main. Let's say lessons that we are learning, but still not everything is digested. Okay of this very last effort of the collaboration. But I think you you will be very helpful in helping that. Yeah.
smithajs: Yeah, if you could focus it on the questions. There were some pretty hard questions in that charge.
smithajs: and and maybe try to, you know, just trying to
smithajs: in a short form, to give the sort of the
smithajs: the elevator speech to the main charge items so that you we can see how you, how you, how you defend yourselves, because those are pretty tough questions.
smithajs: We tried to ask the same ones today, but I think they were even tougher.
Sandro De Cecco: We we train with you.
Jocelyn Monroe: So on this note, let me also say thank you very much to the 40 committee members and our referees for this very extended meeting. Not only was this a long meeting, but also immediately before this there was a really useful and long discussion, so thank you also for your time, and helping the project.
Francesco Forti: Alright. Thank you all.
Luca Grandi: Goodbye!
Paolo Lombardi: Alright!
Andrea Longhin: Oh!
Roberto Santorelli: Hi.